The states that impose the most restrictions on gun users also have the lowest rates of gun-related deaths, while states with fewer regulations typically have a much higher death rate from guns.
Cnasty wrote:Freaks, people with mental problems, everyday joe...you cannot stop someone with intent to commit something like this. It’s impossible.
But to my original question, why America?
What is it about America that this keeps happening and we've seen a legit uptick in mass school shootings since 2011, but it's mostly rare in all other countries, save maybe China.
The states that impose the most restrictions on gun users also have the lowest rates of gun-related deaths, while states with fewer regulations typically have a much higher death rate from guns.
That website is cherry picking. Alaska has a high death rate by guns. But of that 19.8 deaths per 100k, only around 2.5 per 100k are not suicide. Once again, we shouldn't include suicide in the gun debate. If there were no guns whatsoever, in the whole fucking world, they would still kill themselves.
I will admit that I stopped as soon as I saw the first slide. Did look further down and they do break it down a little more.
We can go on and on. It's not a gun problem. It's a parent and mental health problem
I think the better thing would be for you to explain why states with the strictest gun laws have the fewest gun deaths.
From CDC website
Top two firearm mortality states in 2016:
Texas 3,353
California 3,184
Opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to gun laws
Aren't those the 2 biggest states in America? If you're not going to scale it, it's useless info.
But again, my point in this has been lost. Not sure why a couple of folks are insinuating or just dodging the point that this happens more frequently in America than other places...we know that, no real need to not acknowledge it. And 2nd, again, Why America? What is it about us that we have this huge issue that other countries don't have to this level with school shootings?
GeorgesGoons wrote:
That website is cherry picking. Alaska has a high death rate by guns. But of that 19.8 deaths per 100k, only around 2.5 per 100k are not suicide. Once again, we shouldn't include suicide in the gun debate. If there were no guns whatsoever, in the whole fucking world, they would still kill themselves.
Ugh boy...ok George, the data is ONLY skewed because those states with more gun deaths only have higher rates because of suicide, that's it, nothing else or no other reason. Just the suicides skewing the data.
GeorgesGoons wrote:
That website is cherry picking. Alaska has a high death rate by guns. But of that 19.8 deaths per 100k, only around 2.5 per 100k are not suicide. Once again, we shouldn't include suicide in the gun debate. If there were no guns whatsoever, in the whole fucking world, they would still kill themselves.
Ugh boy...ok George, the data is ONLY skewed because those states with more gun deaths only have higher rates because of suicide, that's it, nothing else or no other reason. Just the suicides skewing the data.
Mannn...
don't run away from facts. Alaska has an extremely high rate of suicide by firearms. 16.6 suicides (firearms) per 100k. And have a 19.8 death per 100k by firearms.
I don't fear the guy that wants to commit suicide as much as I fear the guy who wants to murder someone
Could type a full essay on this topic, but Corey hit some of the tough spots. So I'll toss out thoughts in general...
1.) I agree with the argument that the Constitution was written at a time when guns were hand-loaded and you might get off 4 shots in a minute. Population was less. Hell, everything about the world was different, including other laws. I'm sure they never fathomed firing weapons at the rate we do today, so there was zero foresight of the implications. While we're based on the Constitution, at some point things need to fit society today.
2.) Everyone shouldn't have access to guns. Not that they do today, but it is far too easy to get one for most people. But... how do you really determine where the break off is? Misdemeanor offense? Felony offense? Mental Illness?
3.) I think most agree that mentally ill people shouldn't have them. But who determines that? The spectrum of mental illness diagnosis is massive. Trying to draw a line somewhere in there is pretty complicated. I'll admit that I'm a bit of a denier when it comes to some things that we attribute to mental illness. So I see how others that think like me or even further to that side are pessimistic about this.
4.) I saw someone throw up the stat about # of guns vs total population. That's pretty deceiving. Gun ownership is highly consolidated. I don't have the stat handy, but out of registered guns it's something like 3% of the population owns 80% of the weapons. Unregistered is obviously a different story.
5.) The Chicago argument... yeah, it's lazy. I don't like it. But, there is some truth too it. A lot of innocent lives are lost there and the only thing you hear is the same lazy argument. Someone else hit this too, which is why I really hate the Chicago argument... they can have the toughest gun laws in the country and it doesn't matter when Gary, IN and Milwaukee, WI have some of the easiest. It's not like there is a car check when you drive under the tollway that alerts someone of your guns. Most guns in Chicago are illegal anyway.
6.) Why are AR15s and similar weapons even legal for purchase? I believe in the 2nd amendment. I don't believe in the need to have a weapon that can fire at those rates. What is a proper use for a gun? Hunting, protection, target shooting...? In none of those scenarios is a weapon like the AR15 necessary. Not even getting into modifications, etc. Pump, bolt action, lever action rifles for hunting and sport... sure. Pistol with a 10-15 round mag for protection, I can understand it. I'm not sure there is a valid argument out there for other guns.
7.) What we have politically is one side that just screams guns, guns, guns after everything that happens and completely ignores the other contributing factors. Then another side that screams "guns don't kill people, people kill people" and all they want to do is protect "their rights" that are hardly applicable to today's society. Sure you have the right to bear arms, but there's no reason that those arms can't be limited.
8.) I say a lot of this understanding that the assault rifle ban was a joke. If you look at that with a proper understanding of statistics, it wasn't effective. On top of that, the definitions used in the construction of the law were laughable.
9.) Another issue here is that there are estimated 8,000,000 AR15s in the US. That doesn't include similar models of semi-auto weapons. There's no way you can go to registered gun owners and take them away. So are these grandfathered? Is production regulated? Are sales forbidden?
Overall, the issue is far more complicated that "guns" and "mental health."
Just as a point of perspective:
Mass Shooting Deaths 2017: <200
Chicago Deaths 2017: ~700
Suicide 2016: 45,000
Flu/Pneumonia 2016: 57,000
Drunk Driving 2016: 10,500 (290k injured)
Drug Overdoses 2016: 64,000
Medical Malpractice 2016: 251,000
Didn't vet every stat completely, but looked for fairly reliable sources.
You continually focus on the outlier and not that the premise of the facts are correct because it doesn't jive with what your preconceived thoughts were. Instead of accepting new data that runs counter to your thoughts and going from there, you make up your mind then just dismiss any data that doesn't jive with it, that's what is happening here.
Same with the 18 number, yep, it's bogus. But the greater point still stands, and in saying the 18 number is bogus, you get to avoid and not talk about the greater point.
Wash rinse repeat...and here I am still asking the question why are school shootings so prevalent in America compared to other countries and I'm not sure you've taken a stab at answering it, just telling me that it's definitely not guns!!!
ReignOnU wrote:6.) Why are AR15s and similar weapons even legal for purchase? I believe in the 2nd amendment. I don't believe in the need to have a weapon that can fire at those rates. What is a proper use for a gun? Hunting, protection, target shooting...? In none of those scenarios is a weapon like the AR15 necessary. Not even getting into modifications, etc. Pump, bolt action, lever action rifles for hunting and sport... sure. Pistol with a 10-15 round mag for protection, I can understand it. I'm not sure there is a valid argument out there for other guns.
100% on this.
And for point #1 with the Constitution, imagine we made a gun law or some law on technology today but made it in the law that no matter what happened in America, that law could not be changed for the next 250 years. Most would argue that's really dumb, but the same people arguing we shouldn't change gun laws(Note I didnt' say get rid of guns, simply to tighten up/change the laws) that were written 250 years would say that's dumb.
GeorgesGoons wrote:
That website is cherry picking. Alaska has a high death rate by guns. But of that 19.8 deaths per 100k, only around 2.5 per 100k are not suicide. Once again, we shouldn't include suicide in the gun debate. If there were no guns whatsoever, in the whole fucking world, they would still kill themselves.
Ugh boy...ok George, the data is ONLY skewed because those states with more gun deaths only have higher rates because of suicide, that's it, nothing else or no other reason. Just the suicides skewing the data.
Mannn...
If they include suicide, it can greatly skew the totals.
Cnasty wrote:Freaks, people with mental problems, everyday joe...you cannot stop someone with intent to commit something like this. It’s impossible.
But to my original question, why America?
What is it about America that this keeps happening and we've seen a legit uptick in mass school shootings since 2011, but it's mostly rare in all other countries, save maybe China.
Go back to Nick's comment... he basically hits it with 4 points.
1.) We have more guns.
2.) We have more wackos on and off meds.
3.) Our country is far more diverse and socially divisive than any other in the world.
4.) We have more media and therefore more access to events of both large scale and small scale, in which things become more sensationalized.
shel311 wrote:
Wash rinse repeat...and here I am still asking the question why are school shootings so prevalent in America compared to other countries and I'm not sure you've taken a stab at answering it, just telling me that it's definitely not guns!!!
Nobody can answer this question. Not the professionals that study this nor the normal man out there. Mass shootings, not just school shootings, is as American as apple pie. Why you ask? It's been roughly 20 years since school shootings have become prevalent in America. What changed in the last 30 years to cause this? I don't know. Is it parenting? Is it over medication? Lack of discipline of bad kids for fear of being turned in for child abuse? Or do we just have more crazy people now than 50 years ago? Someone could win the Nobel Peace Prize if they can figure this out and stop it.
GeorgesGoons wrote:It's been roughly 20 years since school shootings have become prevalent in America. What changed in the last 30 years to cause this? I don't know. Is it parenting? Is it over medication? Lack of discipline of bad kids for fear of being turned in for child abuse? Or do we just have more crazy people now than 50 years ago? Someone could win the Nobel Peace Prize if they can figure this out and stop it.
From my understanding, this isn't so. They only became more public in the last 20 years.
I'll see if I can find the data but school shootings remained mostly constantly over the years(even more than 20 years ago) until about 2011 where all of a sudden it's increased. It's basically tripled since 2011.
Cnasty wrote:Freaks, people with mental problems, everyday joe...you cannot stop someone with intent to commit something like this. It’s impossible.
But to my original question, why America?
What is it about America that this keeps happening and we've seen a legit uptick in mass school shootings since 2011, but it's mostly rare in all other countries, save maybe China.
Thats the million dollar question that no one knows. If I had to throw some crap against the wall I would say its the social media age of access to more and more "stuff". Not a scientific answer and all countries have access to this as well but America's mentality and psyche is.....different.
GeorgesGoons wrote:It's been roughly 20 years since school shootings have become prevalent in America. What changed in the last 30 years to cause this? I don't know. Is it parenting? Is it over medication? Lack of discipline of bad kids for fear of being turned in for child abuse? Or do we just have more crazy people now than 50 years ago? Someone could win the Nobel Peace Prize if they can figure this out and stop it.
From my understanding, this isn't so. They only became more public in the last 20 years.
I'll see if I can find the data but school shootings remained mostly constantly over the years(even more than 20 years ago) until about 2011 where all of a sudden it's increased. It's basically tripled since 2011.
I don't remember ever seeing 5+ kids being killed in a random killing spree at a school prior to the Columbine shooting. I could chalk that up as being younger and not following the news though too
Cnasty wrote:Freaks, people with mental problems, everyday joe...you cannot stop someone with intent to commit something like this. It’s impossible.
But to my original question, why America?
What is it about America that this keeps happening and we've seen a legit uptick in mass school shootings since 2011, but it's mostly rare in all other countries, save maybe China.
Go back to Nick's comment... he basically hits it with 4 points.
1.) We have more guns.
2.) We have more wackos on and off meds.
3.) Our country is far more diverse and socially divisive than any other in the world.
4.) We have more media and therefore more access to events of both large scale and small scale, in which things become more sensationalized.
Yup, thats what I was saying as well but you defined and made it look prettier with more details.
Depends on the stats you pull and the definitions for mental illness. Including estimated, not diagnosed depression, India and China are ahead of us.
When you really push it and get into that large spectrum of mental health that I mentioned in another post, it's not even close. We can dive into OCD, ICD, low level depression, bipolar, anxiety, substance abuse... we're a lot of special flowers here. (sorry, my denial, which is also likely a disorder, is coming through)
One of the other bad misleading media tactics is to report about the number of rounds seized when law enforcement finds a "cache" of illegal guns or arrests an individual that they then find a bunch of guns in the home. They'll report something like "Police seized seven guns ranging from pistols to AR-15s and two thousand rounds of ammunition," with an emphasis on the quantity.
Every guy owner I know that owns several guns and goes to shooting ranges owns a few thousand rounds of ammunition. They buy in bulk from gun shows because it makes financial sense and they expend a decent quantity just by going to the range on a regular basis. But the media would have you believe this is abnormal - which seems pretty misleading.
ReignOnU wrote:Depends on the stats you pull and the definitions for mental illness. Including estimated, not diagnosed depression, India and China are ahead of us.
When you really push it and get into that large spectrum of mental health that I mentioned in another post, it's not even close. We can dive into OCD, ICD, low level depression, bipolar, anxiety, substance abuse... we're a lot of special flowers here. (sorry, my denial, which is also likely a disorder, is coming through)
