NFL Thread

[ajalves]

Quote from Brian Hatline:

"If I'm not mistaken, this is the same guy [Martin] who was laughing about this voice mail at one point and time, first of all," receiver Brian Hartline said. "Second of all, I believe that, if you go through the whole voice mail, there's some things said that you probably shouldn't say in general, friends or not friends. But I know for a fact that I've said things to my friends that I kind of wish I never said, either.

"With that being said, I never thought it was a death threat. I never thought he was actually going to do the things he said. If you can't take validity from one part of the voice mail, how do you take validity from the whole voice mail? You can't pick and choose what parts count and which parts don't count."

[shel311]

So the fact that he participated in it numerous times doesnt matter? the fact that he was showing off and laughing about the voicemail doesnt matter either?

I'm not saying youre right or wrong...I'm just curious

That would definitely matter, if it were indeed fact.

His teammates have said it happened.

I think it was 1 teammate, right?

And that doesn't make it fact

It may very well be true, but you're stating it like it's 100% stone cold lock fact lol.

[ReignOnU]

Generally speaking, I have been disregarding a lot of what Cris Carter and a few other former NFL players, who are now commentators, are saying. #1 - Many of them seem to be pushing for a story. #2 - Just because it was "X" in their locker rooms back in their day, doesn't mean that it's the same now. #3 - If you listened to all of the player interviews from the Dolphins last night, you get a pretty good feeling that Martin was a complete outcast and they are trying to clear Richie's name. Now I don't know the dynamics of that particular locker room, but I did spend quite a bit of time playing ball in my early 20s and I know that there were many things that went on in within our team that society would consider bad. We were just a bunch of average dudes playing for next to nothing and together for just 8-12 hours a week. I can only imagine the type of atmosphere that it is when you're spendning 8hrs+ a day in that environment.

I've been waiting for Dan to chime in on this topic some... because he can potentially add a perspective that most (if not all) of us don't have.

[ajalves]

So the fact that he participated in it numerous times doesnt matter? the fact that he was showing off and laughing about the voicemail doesnt matter either?

I'm not saying youre right or wrong...I'm just curious

That would definitely matter, if it were indeed fact.

His teammates have said it happened.

I think it was 1 teammate, right?

And that doesn't make it fact

It may very well be true, but you're stating it like it's 100% stone cold lock fact lol.

no i'm not. There is only one guy saying incognito did anything wrong too

[ReignOnU]

There were a handful of player interviews last night... shel should go find them all and post them for us.

[ReignOnU]

So the fact that he participated in it numerous times doesnt matter? the fact that he was showing off and laughing about the voicemail doesnt matter either?

I'm not saying youre right or wrong...I'm just curious

That would definitely matter, if it were indeed fact.

His teammates have said it happened.

I think it was 1 teammate, right?

And that doesn't make it fact

It may very well be true, but you're stating it like it's 100% stone cold lock fact lol.

no i'm not. There is only one guy saying incognito did anything wrong too

...

[dakshdar]

Im probably missing a whole lot here as I havent followed the story but is an NFL lineman really crying about being bullied due to the hazing type stuff that has happened for decades??

Well, that's part of what the media is trying to figure out, I guess. Was it the normal hazing, or did it go way beyond what is considered normal hazing? Who knows.

Former players that work for ESPN have said it goes way beyond, but they could just be building the media hype.

So the fact that he participated in it numerous times doesnt matter? the fact that he was showing off and laughing about the voicemail doesnt matter either?

I'm not saying youre right or wrong...I'm just curious

I'm not sure what you mean by participated in it?

I think them making him pay $15k so they can take a vacation to Vegas, or pay $30k (seems impossible but that was what was floated around) for them to have dinner is all a bit much.

Honestly, I'm just tired of hearing the "he should be a man" crap. Seriously, it's 2013. We're not all aware that many people have social anxiety or other personal/mental disorders where things like pranks and or hazing are going to be way beyond what someone can handle? They honestly couldn't recognize that he was affected by this shit and be an adult and knock it off? Can they have hazing and pranks and shit like that in NFL locker rooms, sure. But shouldn't they people perpetuating them be able to identify when someone can take it and when it is better to not involve someone in it, one would hope. Otherwise, you're not dealing with pranks or hazing that is in the interest of building camaraderie or team strength, you're just left with bullying for the sake of making the bully feel strong and the bullied feel hurt.

[Cnasty]

The more I read the more of a pussy this Martin guy is turning out to be a more a non-story the media attempting to blow up because the N word was used.

But you could say that for about 65% of stories about sports and the media.

[shel311]

no i'm not. There is only one guy saying incognito did anything wrong too

Ok

I've been pretty careful, and Dak was pretty careful in his post choosing words in the actual post you came in and quoted, stating things were facts, just saying lol.

There were a handful of player interviews last night... shel should go find them all and post them for us

That would be AJ's job, not me.

[ajalves]

Honestly, I'm just tired of hearing the "he should be a man" crap. Seriously, it's 2013. We're not all aware that many people have social anxiety or other personal/mental disorders where things like pranks and or hazing are going to be way beyond what someone can handle? They honestly couldn't recognize that he was affected by this shit and be an adult and knock it off? Can they have hazing and pranks and shit like that in NFL locker rooms, sure. But shouldn't they people perpetuating them be able to identify when someone can take it and when it is better to not involve someone in it, one would hope. Otherwise, you're not dealing with pranks or hazing that is in the interest of building camaraderie or team strength, you're just left with bullying for the sake of making the bully feel strong and the bullied feel hurt.

Of course they should be able to recognize that. I think its stupid. Richie Incognito is a moron.

That doesnt mean Martin is 100% in the clear though IMO

[ajalves]

no i'm not. There is only one guy saying incognito did anything wrong too

Ok

I've been pretty careful, and Dak was pretty careful in his post choosing words in the actual post you came in and quoted, stating things were facts, just saying lol.

So we shouldnt talk about anything unless its proven in a court of law or we were actually in a room? Got it.


It's a fucking discussion. jesus.....

[dakshdar]

Coaches and Players comments as given to ESPN reporters (putting it in the spoiler because it is very long):

Spoiler!

NFLN Says: Who's More Responsible?

Coach [Marc Trestman] got his point across from the first day he got here. Coach is like: "I want my guys, I don't care if it's a 12-year veteran or a rookie, I want you focused on football." So all that other stuff, do that on your own time. But when we're here, in this building a rookie, he's another man, and he's important to this team. He's not less of a man than any other guy.


-- Chicago WR Brandon Marshall, as told to ESPN.com Bears reporter Michael C. Wright

In this situation, it's hard for me to believe another grown man was bullied unless you allow it to happen. You give that situation a chance to spread. It's a messed up situation. I don't see anything wrong with Martin coming out and having a little brawl with the guy. You show you're a man, you show you still have a place here. When dudes overstep the boundaries, there's so many outlets. You've got player developmental directors, you've got other players, you've got coaches. That situation got out of hand. ... You're not supposed to break a guy. You're not supposed to make him feel he has no way out of a situation. Absolutely, he does. He's a man at the end of the day, and he has to provide for his family.

-- Philadelphia CB Cary Williams, as told to ESPN.com Eagles reporter Phil Sheridan

If there's a problem I hope the guys around here would be able to come to me or Poz [linebacker Paul Posluszny] or

Meester or whoever they feel is the leader and say how they feel without getting any backlash. ... Now I'm not a big hazing guy. I'm not a big hazing guy at all, but at the end of the year we are going to have a running back dinner. Granted, we're not going to spend -- let me put it this way, your money goes off where you were drafted. We're not going to have a fifth- or sixth-rounder pay $30,000. Come on, let's be reasonable. ... You've got to go through it and that's just part of being -- I don't want to say it's part of being accepted -- but it's just part of our culture, this NFL culture.

-- Jacksonville RB Maurice Jones-Drew, as told to ESPN.com Jags reporter Michael DiRocco

If somebody sees something, you have to kind of handle it internally. Somebody needs to step in and take care of it before it gets turned into a real problem. I guess that's what didn't happen there. ... Let's separate a voicemail from hazing because that's not hazing. That's an anomaly. That's a tremendous lapse in judgment. It has nothing to do with hazing in my opinion. Hazing is haircuts, hazing is filling a guy's car with package bubbles, putting water under their door at the hotel. It's pranks, it's carrying a helmet, all that stuff but all the while being respectful of that person and also sensing if somebody isn't well equipped to handle that and kind of tapering off a little bit.

-- St. Louis DE Chris Long, as told to ESPN.com Rams reporter Nick Wagoner

We're not a hazing team. That's not what we are about. Anybody who comes into our locker room is a teammate. You don't have to earn your stripes that way. ... Ray Rice is huge into the anti-bullying campaign. It's all of us who have kids who feel very strongly about that. So, as older adults, parents, coaches, teachers, I would think that we would be all over that in our society right now, especially with computers and all the different things that are going on with social media. That's our responsibility to train our kids how to treat one another.

-- Baltimore coach John Harbaugh, as told to ESPN.com Ravens reporter Jamison Hensley

If what is said is true, I think it's completely unacceptable, 100 percent. And it's on a lot of people. It's on players in that locker room that allow it to go on. It's on anyone that knew about it that didn't step up and say something. Look, all I have to go on is what a voicemail said. And if the voicemail is indicative of the other things that are being said, absolutely 100 percent unacceptable. There's no excuse for it. If that's said at any point, under any circumstances, it's just not right. And that's not a football issue, that's not a locker room issue. That's a life issue.

-- New Orleans T Zach Strief, as told to ESPN.com Saints reporter Mike Triplett

Everybody is different. Everybody is not built the same. What may affect you, it may not bother me and vice versa. It's the same way with how coaches deal with players. Some players can take getting cussed out and yelled at in front of everybody. It'll make them play better. And then some players, they go into a shell and they get worse. So you've just got to know your personnel and who you're dealing with. But you know, you see a little hazing here and there. We joke around in the D-line, but we all love each other. If you mess with one of us, you're going to have all of us on your head. That's the main thing.

-- Cincinnati DE Michael Johnson, as told to ESPN.com Bengals reporter Coley Harvey

I think I've got a pretty good feel for the guys in there. Obviously, that's something that you always want to keep a close eye on and keep monitored. But I don't think we have any issues with any of that type of stuff on this football team. And really that was a point that we tried to make in training camp: not really hazing the rookies. We need everybody and if we're going to get this culture the right way and if we're going to win football games like we believe we're capable of winning, then we're going to need everybody in that locker room. I think ultimately that's my responsibility.

-- Oakland coach Dennis Allen, as told to ESPN.com Raiders reporter Paul Gutierrez

It's the players. But how do you police it if you have your most esteemed vets doing it? Others have to have the responsibility and step up. It's the same line that's drawn across the line in society. You don't put your hands on somebody. You don't say racial things or derogatory things about their family. It's the NFL. I think the rookie dinners are part of the game, especially if you're a high draft pick. That's a big deal. Now, if it's a rookie dinner every week? No. It's either one at the beginning or one at the end. But it's not, "We're going to Vegas and give me 15." That makes the players not want to be around you.

-- Washington LB Nick Barnett, as told to ESPN.com Redskins reporter John Keim

There's only so much the coaches can do. They are not in the locker room every day. They only hear so much about what's going on so what can you do if you're getting everything secondhand. ... I think it falls on the players and you've got to police it. Like I just said, there's a decent way to do everything. Even if you are going to do hazing, there's a decent way to do it. I feel like this is part of being a rookie but we still love you like a brother. That's a way to do it versus saying it's part of being a rookie and you're not equal to us.

-- Detroit WR Nate Burleson, as told to ESPN.com Lions reporter Michael Rothstein

Seems like at least the majority of these people talked to don't have much of the "be a man" attitude. Of course, ESPN can pick and choose which responses they use in their article, so...

[ajalves]

All those quotes are those guys opinions. they arent allowed in here

[shel311]

no i'm not. There is only one guy saying incognito did anything wrong too

Ok

I've been pretty careful, and Dak was pretty careful in his post choosing words in the actual post you came in and quoted, stating things were facts, just saying lol.

So we shouldnt talk about anything unless its proven in a court of law or we were actually in a room? Got it.


It's a fucking discussion. jesus.....

Never said that nothing remotely close to that, c'mon AJ, you need to step it up here, you're slacking!!!

[shel311]

All those quotes are those guys opinions. they arent allowed in here

Literally no clue what you're even doing now, it makes no sense whatsoever.

Nothing I said can any way logical way be taken as we can't give opinions on this case.

[cdub21]

so far it seems like everyday martin looks worse and worse. i think hes a really smart dude with smart parents and realized he wasnt going to work out in the nfl (the jokes, the losing his LT job, etc). Maybe he wanted a payday via lawsuit, a way to get out while getting sympathy and not shit on, or just wanted to get payback on Dolphins/Incognito. I dont know but i'm interested in how this all plays out. From the player interviews it seems like it has lit a fire under the Dolphins and might bring out the best in the team.

[Wasted Memory]

Wife tasered after Bears-Packers bet

Awesome. I'm working this into a Fantasy Football bet!

[shel311]

From the player interviews it seems like it has lit a fire under the Dolphins and might bring out the best in the team.

Possibly, but they're one of the worst pass blocking units in the NFL, and now they're down 2 starters...though maybe it can't get worse, so you may be right

[trendon]

Riccio is gonna be mad at all of you for not immediately yelling at Incognito and coddling Martin. You're warned; or maybe I am the only guy he thinks tries to act tough.

[trendon]

Honestly, I'm just tired of hearing the "he should be a man" crap. Seriously, it's 2013. We're not all aware that many people have social anxiety or other personal/mental disorders where things like pranks and or hazing are going to be way beyond what someone can handle? They honestly couldn't recognize that he was affected by this shit and be an adult and knock it off? Can they have hazing and pranks and shit like that in NFL locker rooms, sure. But shouldn't they people perpetuating them be able to identify when someone can take it and when it is better to not involve someone in it, one would hope. Otherwise, you're not dealing with pranks or hazing that is in the interest of building camaraderie or team strength, you're just left with bullying for the sake of making the bully feel strong and the bullied feel hurt.

OK ... he should be a man.

Seriously, it's 2013, we are overpopulated as it is, can he just kill himself? Why must we fucking constantly accept these lessened models?