formations vs plays

[Twistanutz22]

I will never understand why people have a problem with the spread option. (when run correctly)


It's a scheme, just like the power running system at Stanford is a scheme. Or the air raid system at West Virginia is a scheme. If staying true to yourself, and running YOUR system all game long is a problem.. Then put me in the minority.

I'd say, in fact, that if someone runs multiple formations.... Like Wishbone, then goes to 5 Wide, then goes to the One Back Ace.. all in the same drive, THAT is way more of a problem, (and just unrealistic) than running multiple plays out of the same formations.


Just my 2 cents.

[yougoogelizer]

I will never understand why people have a problem with the spread option. (when run correctly)


It's a scheme, just like the power running system at Stanford is a scheme. Or the air raid system at West Virginia is a scheme. If staying true to yourself, and running YOUR system all game long is a problem.. Then put me in the minority.

I'd say, in fact, that if someone runs multiple formations.... Like Wishbone, then goes to 5 Wide, then goes to the One Back Ace.. all in the same drive, THAT is way more of a problem, (and just unrealistic) than running multiple plays out of the same formations.


Just my 2 cents.

While I agree with you, I feel that is the same as on defense playing man or zone all game. And yet that seems to not be ok in the league. I also run a very conservative style offense with short throws or runs between the tackle and was docked for that. But ultimately I was not saying I have a problem with the spread option, just saying that if a guy is crushing someone with it then they need to know when to shut it down.

[ReignOnU]

I will never understand why people have a problem with the spread option. (when run correctly)


It's a scheme, just like the power running system at Stanford is a scheme. Or the air raid system at West Virginia is a scheme. If staying true to yourself, and running YOUR system all game long is a problem.. Then put me in the minority.

I'd say, in fact, that if someone runs multiple formations.... Like Wishbone, then goes to 5 Wide, then goes to the One Back Ace.. all in the same drive, THAT is way more of a problem, (and just unrealistic) than running multiple plays out of the same formations.


Just my 2 cents.

While I agree with you, I feel that is the same as on defense playing man or zone all game. And yet that seems to not be ok in the league. I also run a very conservative style offense with short throws or runs between the tackle and was docked for that. But ultimately I was not saying I have a problem with the spread option, just saying that if a guy is crushing someone with it then they need to know when to shut it down.

So in a spread option book, when I'm up big, what is your expectation? Keep in mind, the other rushing alternatives are dives, draws (silly to run a draw in a wind the clock down rushing situation right?), counter (can get kicked wide quite a bit), and maybe a power play, if you have the right setup. This is like saying that you're facing a power run team and late in the game you don't want them to run power runs if they are beating you up. It doesn't seem to make sense to me.

[yougoogelizer]

Look, from my experience and what my CR's have told me. Running conservative offense is not acceptable and I have to open up my playbook more...even though I run several different formations. If you run shot gun spread and option out of it, isnt that the same thing? Or if my defensive play style is running man D, but that is not acceptable in this league and I need to run zone D more...that is the same as saying even though you run the spread option it shouldnt be your only offense. Im basing that off of criticisms i have received from this league. Now, if the spread option is your whole offensive scheme then so be it. But based on what I have seen in this league, that is not an acceptable way to play...using one style the whole game. If this were a true sim league then it wouldnt be an issue but ultimately it is not considering we have to have a discussion like this. Is it unreasonable to say that running the spread option outside the tackles every play is not mixing it up? Because that is where most spread option plays lead...outside the tackles. Is that moderation? No. Is it how a lot of real life teams play? Yes. So there is the rub. Is this a SIM league or a league where we want some sim but within moderation. Is it realistic to stop a team like Oregon to only a 35 point win when in real life they can win by 50 at times? No, but we put the 35 point rule in place to we can all hopefully have more fun...because no one wants to play a game where they get beat by 50 on a regular basis. Thus, not a true sim league. So my expectation, since that seems to be the expectation of the people I play, is that offenses should be more versatile in our NDL league than they are in real life. I don't think that is an unrealistic expectation for me to have since everyone I play seems to have that expectation of me. Now, if the league comes out and changes how they do coach reports and it is not longer about how much you mix up your offense as it is about whether you cheese your opponent or not, they I will have no problem with someone running the spread option offense all game.

[dakshdar]

I tend to go through and put together all the formations I want and when I hit the play cap limit I go back and go through the formations to delete the plays I know I'll never run. I also try to avoid what I feel are duplicate formations and/or duplicate plays. No need to have HB dive and HB iso when one is just the mirror of the other. No reason to have ace trips and pistol trips.

For what everyone else is talking about, I personally couldn't care less if someone runs spread option all day long, unless the game ends and their main HB has 40 carries and the QB has 1. Spread option, with this game, has so many plays out of so many formations. You can have WRs in motion (automatically) and you can have FB/TEs in the backfield on shotgun plays as blockers or decoys. If people are complaining about play style, look at whether you're just calling the same play out of different formations or whether you're only giving the ball to one player. If someone leaves a review and has some criticism and they "sign" their report, ask them for specific examples. Try to take what they're saying seriously and decide for yourself whether it is a situation you understand and agree you could work on, or whether you're dealing with sour grapes. You won't be able to please everyone all the time.

[Twistanutz22]

Look, from my experience and what my CR's have told me. Running conservative offense is not acceptable and I have to open up my playbook more...even though I run several different formations. If you run shot gun spread and option out of it, isnt that the same thing? Or if my defensive play style is running man D, but that is not acceptable in this league and I need to run zone D more...that is the same as saying even though you run the spread option it shouldnt be your only offense. Im basing that off of criticisms i have received from this league. Now, if the spread option is your whole offensive scheme then so be it. But based on what I have seen in this league, that is not an acceptable way to play...using one style the whole game. If this were a true sim league then it wouldnt be an issue but ultimately it is not considering we have to have a discussion like this. Is it unreasonable to say that running the spread option outside the tackles every pla Because that is where most spread option plays lead...outside the tackles.y is not mixing it up? Is that moderation? No. Is it how a lot of real life teams play? Yes. So there is the rub. Is this a SIM league or a league where we want some sim but within moderation. Is it realistic to stop a team like Oregon to only a 35 point win when in real life they can win by 50 at times? No, but we put the 35 point rule in place to we can all hopefully have more fun...because no one wants to play a game where they get beat by 50 on a regular basis. Thus, not a true sim league. So my expectation, since that seems to be the expectation of the people I play, is that offenses should be more versatile in our NDL league than they are in real life. I don't think that is an unrealistic expectation for me to have since everyone I play seems to have that expectation of me. Now, if the league comes out and changes how they do coach reports and it is not longer about how much you mix up your offense as it is about whether you cheese your opponent or not, they I will have no problem with someone running the spread option offense all game.

This is actually not the case. There are Outside Zone Reads (Which attacks the defense's perimeter), and there are Inside Zone Reads (Which ofcourse attacks the defense's interior)

I think anyone that has played me, would confirm that I do not abuse AI/cheese, and use a very balanced attack... But I never shy away from the Zone Read plays. Now, when I get up big.. I dumb it down quite a bit to be respectful. But, I'm always out of the gun. Always.

But I do agree with you that this seems to be less of a SIM league than I originally thought.. But in a good way. I like how all the rules/regulations compliment each other, and how you have to really think about how you want to attack your opponent in order to keep your job. I hope, for that sake, that they don't change a thing. Just wish that using different "schemes" wasn't so much of a priority, because I think you can do the opposite and still keep the integrity of the game intact.

[ReignOnU]

Sounds like you're reading way to much into what I'm asking... so I'll clarify...


Use this scenario:
I run / pass on a 50/50 split most games. So we'll call that 25 rushes, 25 passes. Of the rushes, about 10 are specifically QB/RB read, about 8 are draw, dive, counter, power (if it's available), the other 7 are triple option variations, WR/Slot options, and maybe 1-2 wildcat and/or a speed option.

So IMO, it's a pretty wide range of rushes. But now I'm up big and I what I want to know is, what is your expectation? You seem to be under the impression that read options all go outside (absolutely not the case in the pistol offense btw), but with that said, QB/RB should be avoided, triple should be avoided, definitely don't want to go wide with WR/Slot, or speed, and draws don't make any sense either, since I'd never be passing in this situation. So is your expectation that I run dives into the line for the rest of the game?

What I'm trying to get you to understand is a few different things:
1.) Read options don't all go outside, in fact, from the pistol, 50% of the time it's in between the tackles.
2.) Beyond the basic draw/dive and the read in the Pistol (and 1-2 SG formations), the whole concept of the offense is "Spread," as in, "Spread" the field wide and use all of it... so by design, many things are meant to stretch wide.

As I've mentioned, my coaches reports have been pretty solid, for one reason or another. To me, it's sounds like you have some misconceptions about how this offense works and your incorrect conclusions could certainly spread to other uneducated people. That's how many of the issues and preconceived notions about certain things start.


As for the rant about defenses, you certainly shouldn't sit in man/zone all day. But mixing up a defense is more than just man / zone. Do you blitz? How often? With who? Do you only play C3? Do you play C2/C4? Do you only run C2 Man? What formations? The fact is, guys are going to play more man/zone based on what they feel comfortable with. Personally, I think man is more powerful, but even with that knowledge, I probably run more zone and I'm one of the few that will run everything from 2 to 4.

One thing to consider is that I think (stressing this part) that guys recognize offenses and defenses differently. On offense, it's all about where the ball ends up. So if you consistently throw slants, even if it's different plays, it'll be recognized. If you consistently run outside, that gets recognized. With the option, again, I think, what saves me is that I don't run the play with the intention of just going outside. If the middle is open, that's the read I make, if it's QB on the triple, so be it. I take what I get. So while it's the same play out of a different formation, the location of the ball changes. Going back to the slants... you might get dinged if you continuously run slants, but lets say you find a play with 4 passing routes and you continuously mix these routes up... I almost guarantee you that you can run that play 8x a game as long as you spread the ball around, because most guys won't realize it. (unless it's a blatantly obvious set of route combos)

Defensively, it's different. Most guys don't care too much about your formation, unless it's something ridiculous in which you rarely match up personnel. (always in dime, no matter what, etc.) However, what they do recognize are blitz frequency/location and coverage type. So you can change formation all day long, but if you run C2 man as your go to, it's going to be very obvious and you're going to get blasted for it. I have a perfect example of this from earlier this season where I spent an entire half running a different formation and a mix of a zone coverage, a man coverage and a general blitz location... I probably didn't even run the same play 2x, but the coach actually (jokingly, but somewhat serious) asked me if I knew 'any other defensive plays.' When I thought about it, it was basically just 2 coverages and 1 blitz location that actually caused that perception. So after realizing this, I kind of understood what they saw.

[Dcane7]

I have about 25 formations.
Goaline
2 Wishbone
2 Heavy I Form Types
About 10 Pistol
About 10 Shotgun

I probably have as many runs, if not more runs, than passes in them. I really don't need a lot of pass plays, as long as I'm not playing somewhere like the big house, where I can just hot route the pass plays to whatever I need. I have just enough pass plays to get me some route combos that I like, then I modify the rest on the fly. Not sure you'd really be able to tell that I'm doing that unless you paid close attention, because I make the hot route adjustments before my guys even lineup.

Running the spread option is tricky. I had great coaches reports the last few seasons, but that may have been in large part because I've learned to play guys that are cool and much more laid back (big freakin' shout out to the Big East!), so they don't get their panties in a bunch when I run this offense. Some guys can differentiate between the formations, while others just scream "all you do is run the option!" Uhh... yeah. That's kind of the idea. I think I do a pretty good job of giving different looks though. I mix in the FB (or other HB) on triple options, the WR on motion options/jet sweeps and throw in draws, counters and powers as well. I will say that if your goal is a great coaching report, then tons of formations with similar plays isn't going to go as well for you as less formations with different plays (unless those plays look the same to your opponent).

*BTW, now you have the scouting report on me Matt, enjoy!*

I took notes too

[ReignOnU]

This is actually not the case. There are Outside Zone Reads (Which attacks the defense's perimeter), and there are Inside Zone Reads (Which ofcourse attacks the defense's interior)

I think anyone that has played me, would confirm that I do not abuse AI/cheese, and use a very balanced attack... But I never shy away from the Zone Read plays. Now, when I get up big.. I dumb it down quite a bit to be respectful. But, I'm always out of the gun. Always.

But I do agree with you that this seems to be less of a SIM league than I originally thought.. But in a good way. I like how all the rules/regulations compliment each other, and how you have to really think about how you want to attack your opponent in order to keep your job. I hope, for that sake, that they don't change a thing. Just wish that using different "schemes" wasn't so much of a priority, because I think you can do the opposite and still keep the integrity of the game intact.

Good post. And things won't change. Which is why this all works so well.

I just love having this discussion, even though we do it every game year.

I think it's eye opening to new guys and a refresher to old guys that we should be a little more open minded about our expectations. There's obvious cheese and then there's the fact that some guys just see things differently or play different styles.

There are the handful of guys that do take things too literal and have specific expectations. They are entitled to that, but I just do my best to avoid them. I haven't run into a full on air raid team that has blown me out, but if I did, I don't think I'd expect them to run HB dive every play against me. I'd hope that they wouldn't take any shots over 10-15 yards and keep their game play realistic.

Admittedly, I'm probably more lenient than most, but that probably comes from the fact that I've run WCO, RnS, Spread, SO (with pistol), and Flexbone, all with in the last 7-8 seasons. I get what is in most of these books and what plays they have at their disposal. I've even softened my stance on what I think is the dumbest trend, power run. My initial thought on it is that guys just run it because it's safe, they are afraid to pass, they know they have a superior team that will dominate the LOS and I thought it was even broken on last year's game. Because Stanford did it last year, I've been a little more open to it. I haven't completely changed my stance, as I still think it's lame to roll out Wishbone-Tight, or I-Big Twin TE on 1st and 10 from the wrong side of the 50, but there is precedence. (/end hate) Again though, the nice thing about this league is that you can make your own schedule and try avoid the things you don't like as much as possible.

[ReignOnU]

I took notes too

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't need them. My goal is not to get 35'd and to get double digit points.

[Dcane7]

I took notes too

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't need them. My goal is not to get 35'd and to get double digit points.

Well played sir!

[Dcane7]

This is actually not the case. There are Outside Zone Reads (Which attacks the defense's perimeter), and there are Inside Zone Reads (Which ofcourse attacks the defense's interior)

I think anyone that has played me, would confirm that I do not abuse AI/cheese, and use a very balanced attack... But I never shy away from the Zone Read plays. Now, when I get up big.. I dumb it down quite a bit to be respectful. But, I'm always out of the gun. Always.

But I do agree with you that this seems to be less of a SIM league than I originally thought.. But in a good way. I like how all the rules/regulations compliment each other, and how you have to really think about how you want to attack your opponent in order to keep your job. I hope, for that sake, that they don't change a thing. Just wish that using different "schemes" wasn't so much of a priority, because I think you can do the opposite and still keep the integrity of the game intact.

Good post. And things won't change. Which is why this all works so well.

I just love having this discussion, even though we do it every game year.

I think it's eye opening to new guys and a refresher to old guys that we should be a little more open minded about our expectations. There's obvious cheese and then there's the fact that some guys just see things differently or play different styles.

There are the handful of guys that do take things too literal and have specific expectations. They are entitled to that, but I just do my best to avoid them. I haven't run into a full on air raid team that has blown me out, but if I did, I don't think I'd expect them to run HB dive every play against me. I'd hope that they wouldn't take any shots over 10-15 yards and keep their game play realistic.

Admittedly, I'm probably more lenient than most, but that probably comes from the fact that I've run WCO, RnS, Spread, SO (with pistol), and Flexbone, all with in the last 7-8 seasons. I get what is in most of these books and what plays they have at their disposal. I've even softened my stance on what I think is the dumbest trend, power run. My initial thought on it is that guys just run it because it's safe, they are afraid to pass, they know they have a superior team that will dominate the LOS and I thought it was even broken on last year's game. Because Stanford did it last year, I've been a little more open to it. I haven't completely changed my stance, as I still think it's lame to roll out Wishbone-Tight, or I-Big Twin TE on 1st and 10 from the wrong side of the 50, but there is precedence. (/end hate) Again though, the nice thing about this league is that you can make your own schedule and try avoid the things you don't like as much as possible.

+1

[Wasted Memory]

The trend I'm seeing through about half of the last season and a lot (but not everyone so don't get your panties in a wad if you've played me) of the preseason scrims is m2m press coverage about 75% of the game and then a sprinkle of m2m without going bump and run and an even smaller sprinkle of zone. Pull this type of defense and you're forcing the opposing coach to a certain type of offense throughout the game, so don't get upset with them for that if you're going to choose that type of defense.

I'll admit I'm way to lax on CR's. When I faced this last season I would only take 1 point away from the CR's. In all honest, pretty sure the lowest CR I gave last season was a 24/25. If I have fun playing you're getting a good report from me regardless of how you played. I will say though that I'm getting pretty burned out on facing the same defense over and over and over and over again. Fair warning to my opponents this season on that. Play it all you want, but you're going to pay the price this season on the CR. It's not realistic, never has been, to run m2m all game, just like it's not realistic to run zone all game.

[Dcane7]

The trend I'm seeing through about half of the last season and a lot (but not everyone so don't get your panties in a wad if you've played me) of the preseason scrims is m2m press coverage about 75% of the game and then a sprinkle of m2m without going bump and run and an even smaller sprinkle of zone. Pull this type of defense and you're forcing the opposing coach to a certain type of offense throughout the game, so don't get upset with them for that if you're going to choose that type of defense.

I'll admit I'm way to lax on CR's. When I faced this last season I would only take 1 point away from the CR's. In all honest, pretty sure the lowest CR I gave last season was a 24/25. If I have fun playing you're getting a good report from me regardless of how you played. I will say though that I'm getting pretty burned out on facing the same defense over and over and over and over again. Fair warning to my opponents this season on that. Play it all you want, but you're going to pay the price this season on the CR. It's not realistic, never has been, to run m2m all game, just like it's not realistic to run zone all game.

I agree with you to a point. There are some teams that have to play a defense that it caters to the opposition but at the same time fits their personnel. No point in trying to mix in m2m a lot if your guys are getting burnt i.e. D/C vs B+/A whatever. I will understand if my opponent plays more zone then man. And at the same time if their front 3/4 isn't getting any pressure I'm not going to dock them for sending pressure. From games I've played I've seen people sit in pockets all day to throw and their WR's completing routes and continuing to run down the field again wide open because the QB has had all day. I myself blitz I know I do I would send at least one person a long with my line especially if it was a 3 man front but sometimes you have to change it up either way. You either pay for it in the game or on the CR but ultimately you should make sure your opponent as well as yourself is having a good time. Every game I lost last season was a fun game. Granted I didn't get blown out but i have before and it's not a good feeling and you can find yourself picking at every little thing even if it really isn't anything there just because and I honestly think some people do it especially when it comes to games the feel they should have won and didn't. I only say this because I was their myself at one point in my NDL tenure, so I'm sure someone can relate. But looking back on things I do agree with you Wasted but I do give a different perspective when there is a big difference in caliber with the teams. But that's just my opinion.

[ReignOnU]

I don't consider press v non-press as changing anything. I consider press usage the same as using a tactic, not necessarily a play type. As usual, I'd expect it to be used in moderation.

You hit a key point Wasted... the first thing I do if I see something that seems to be cheesey is ask myself if I'm doing something that is forcing them to do that. If I'm running out 5 wide every play and they are sitting back in C2 Man / C4 every play, then I'm not going to complain because I don't see them running C2 Zone or blitzing the house. I think many of the vet coaches definitely look at themselves first.

[shel311]

I think I'm one of the only ones I have seen who routinely blitzes 6 when I see 5 wide sets.

Easier to do with LSU's secondary though.

[Nole4real]

I think I'm one of the only ones I have seen who routinely blitzes 6 when I see 5 wide sets.

Easier to do with LSU's secondary though.

nope..there is another

i actually learned that from you...to be honest, i'll even bring 7 sometimes if they are in my territory and i wanna take a chance on a big play. especially when i have a colorado or soemthing and i know even 5 wide...my guys aint gonna get pressure on the qb or if my opponent likes the drags or slower developing routes from 5wide

[shel311]

Yea.

It's not so hard to beat a 6an blitz when you have 5WRs, but I think it's pretty successful because no one is ever expecting it, especially on 3rd and 10s.

[SuperJakeB]

Is there a negative impact on coaching reports if your defense revolves around giving up touchdowns every possession to get the ball back? If that is the case I am very repetitive on defense.

[jsence2]

The trend I'm seeing through about half of the last season and a lot (but not everyone so don't get your panties in a wad if you've played me) of the preseason scrims is m2m press coverage about 75% of the game and then a sprinkle of m2m without going bump and run and an even smaller sprinkle of zone. Pull this type of defense and you're forcing the opposing coach to a certain type of offense throughout the game, so don't get upset with them for that if you're going to choose that type of defense.

I'll admit I'm way to lax on CR's. When I faced this last season I would only take 1 point away from the CR's. In all honest, pretty sure the lowest CR I gave last season was a 24/25. If I have fun playing you're getting a good report from me regardless of how you played. I will say though that I'm getting pretty burned out on facing the same defense over and over and over and over again. Fair warning to my opponents this season on that. Play it all you want, but you're going to pay the price this season on the CR. It's not realistic, never has been, to run m2m all game, just like it's not realistic to run zone all game.

Hey, I mixed mine up enough to pick Bray off four times, so whatever I did I'll try to do again this time