DRWebs wrote:I really can't stand this whole Stephen Strasburg must be shut down business...this could be their one year to make a deep postseason run. Limit the innings, ok but leave him off the postseason roster ?
The most ridiculous part of this IMO is the poor planning for it. i don't get why he couldn't be more limited in previous starts, to maybe 5 IP per start here and there, skip a start here and there, an extra day's rest. I don't know, I'm sure some of those things may hinder him from peak performance, but surely, they're better than shutting him down right before the playoffs.
They have a fair amounts of articles that this whole innings limit is rubbish and that pitchers just naturally get injured...so frustrating to watch. And then Scott Boras goes and adds his 2 cents by saying it would be legally and morally wrong to not limit him
You play a long ass season, your best in franchise history, have one of the best rotations in baseball and then you decide to kill your playoff hopes because of an innings limit?
25 starts, 5 IP per start. 125IP heading into the playoffs.
Sure, it would probably hurt their record some obviously, but I'd imagine they're still a playoff team.
Just makes no sense to have him go out every 5 days, as many IP as he can, then shut him down before the season is over. At least, none that i can rationalize.
DRWebs wrote:I really can't stand this whole Stephen Strasburg must be shut down business...this could be their one year to make a deep postseason run. Limit the innings, ok but leave him off the postseason roster ?
yeah they're retarded for this, hope they reconsider
they're saying they want 10 years of strasburg at ace level instead of letting him go all out and maybe getting hurt the year after having tommy john. I mean couldn't he just as easily get hurt in the 2nd year after TJ? As a ranger fan seeing two teams lose the WS and a decade of crap before that all i know is that if you have a team you think can win a WS you better step on the gas cause you never know when you'll get that chance again. Ask the bartman era Cubs about how easy it is to get back to the playoffs
I am all for it only cause I am a braves fan. I do think the nats see cautionary tales of young pitchers forced in to action, throwing a ton of innings, getting hurt, and never getting back to pre-injury form. Flip side is the two that immediately come to mind were never in the playoff hunt like they are.
they babied him the entire way and he had to get Tommy John, so i'm pretty sure they have no clue what they're doing so throwing an arbitrary number up there and giving away a chance at a title is stupid. Seems like we all agree though
BFiVL wrote:I am all for it only cause I am a braves fan. I do think the nats see cautionary tales of young pitchers forced in to action, throwing a ton of innings, getting hurt, and never getting back to pre-injury form. Flip side is the two that immediately come to mind were never in the playoff hunt like they are.
IDK if you're talking about Prior but people always forget his biggest injury issue was that shoulder injury he got in a collision running the bases. Stupid NL..but thats another arguement.
regardless I do understand their caution. There's countless other SP that have flamed out from overuse. I guess what I dont get is what makes the guys now not able to pitch like the guys in the 70s or earlier. Nolan ryan was throwing close to 300 innings a year in his late 30s. granted hes a HOF but most starters were way over 200 in that era
BFiVL wrote:I am all for it only cause I am a braves fan. I do think the nats see cautionary tales of young pitchers forced in to action, throwing a ton of innings, getting hurt, and never getting back to pre-injury form. Flip side is the two that immediately come to mind were never in the playoff hunt like they are.
IDK if you're talking about Prior but people always forget his biggest injury issue was that shoulder injury he got in a collision running the bases. Stupid NL..but thats another arguement.
regardless I do understand their caution. There's countless other SP that have flamed out from overuse. I guess what I dont get is what makes the guys now not able to pitch like the guys in the 70s or earlier. Nolan ryan was throwing close to 300 innings a year in his late 30s. granted hes a HOF but most starters were way over 200 in that era
That collision may have caused it but according to trendon.com aka Wikipedia. The collision happend in 03 and he missed 3 starts. He didn't have shoulder problems again till 3 seasons later. So who knows. Kerry wood is the others that comes to mind.
i remember that collision, i think i had the braves 2B (Giles i wanna say?) on my fantasy team and Prior and was doubly pissed...
I'm starting to think Rizzo had this whole limit thing in mind because he didn't expect the Nats to be in the playoffs or even in the race with the Miami "upgrades" plus the Braves/Phillies and now he's just being stubborn (although he already changed slightly from 160 to 180)
They should go to a 6 man rotation the rest of the way. Their % chance of making the playoffs is currently 99.1%, and a 6 man isn't going to kill them assuming they have even a passable starter for that sixth spot.
They were talking about it on ESPN somewhere and it will save them at least 1 and possibly 2 starts for him down the stretch. That would end up with him coming in at between 173 and 180 innings heading into the playoffs assuming his average start length is maintained. They could also look to get him out of games earlier when they have a big league and a rested bullpen.
Then, I think you let him pitch in the playoffs. May only be as much as 3-4 more starts at that point.
And innings don't matter as much as pitches, but the pitches/inning average out in the long run. Plus, I think there is something to be said for the cycling of sitting down for ten minutes, then getting back up and throwing for ten minutes, then sitting back down, then getting back up, etc. That is known, in engineering, as cyclical fatigue, and is pretty much the worst kind of loading for many things (like airplane wings).
VeniVediV1ci wrote:you think that applies? I don't know either way
I don't have first hand experience with pitching, but it is a definite fact in engineering.
There are actually two cycles going on for the pitcher, the pitch/minute frequency when he's on the mound and then the frequency of the top and bottom of the inning. So he's going through cyclical loading at a higher frequency while he's pitching, throwing a pitch that puts extreme loads on his arm, and then doing nothing for 30 seconds. And he's going through cyclical loading at a lower overall frequency through out the game with 10-15 minute on/off periods where he pitches and then sits around doing nothing (if he doesn't bat).
mbyrd75 wrote:I guess what I dont get is what makes the guys now not able to pitch like the guys in the 70s or earlier. Nolan ryan was throwing close to 300 innings a year in his late 30s
The way they train.
I posted an article about relief pitchers a while back, wish I knew where it was, I'm guessing somewhere at the beginning of this thread.
Pretty sure that was the same article, it also talked about starters and how it all basically comes down to how they are training nowadays, as opposed to back then.
Some things I know... and things I think I know...
- (I know) Counting innings is about the dumbest thing I've heard. All innings are not created equally and a typical inning for 1 pitcher is not the same for another. For instance, this season, E. Volquez is throwing 17.9 pitches per inning. Strasburg, 16.3. While that doesn't seem like a lot, it's 10% more, which is a large variance.
- (I think) All pitches, in theory, are not created equally. I was listening to an interview about this last week. One of the organizations (LAA/LAD) doesn't track IP/Pitches, instead they track Regular Pitches and Intense (or some other word) Pitches. The more I listened to their reasoning, the more sense it made. They believe more stress is put into the motion when dealing in tough situations.
- Limiting him is just stupid. Like someone else mentioned, when you've got a chance to win the World Series, you do whatever is necessary to win it. Now, since they've all but got a playoff spot locked up, I'm good with going to a 6 man, or skipping him once or twice. But to just shut him down could be a disaster.
- Why do guys throw less innings now? I think it's because they actually throw more now, both in the games and in side sessions. In the games, there has been about a 5% increase in P/IP since the early 2000s. I can't find anyway to track it further back. (could also be related to the steroid era ending at bats earlier, who knows) I'm pretty sure that pitchers didn't throw nearly as much on the side 20-30yrs ago. I believe it was basically start to start, which allowed for the 4 man rotations.
mbyrd75 wrote:I guess what I dont get is what makes the guys now not able to pitch like the guys in the 70s or earlier. Nolan ryan was throwing close to 300 innings a year in his late 30s
The way they train.
I posted an article about relief pitchers a while back, wish I knew where it was, I'm guessing somewhere at the beginning of this thread.
Pretty sure that was the same article, it also talked about starters and how it all basically comes down to how they are training nowadays, as opposed to back then.
training should be better now than it was then, I remember Ken Williams saying they didn't know about obliques back when he was throwing
Specialization is a bigger key and everyone is bigger and better so it forces a lot more work and that pushes everyone closer to their breaking point, imo
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