Occupy Wall Street

[DRiccio21]

edit: what brwn said

[Shiftdnb]

Riccio, do you get taxed if you have investments in companies?

Only if they :
- pay dividends, alot of companies don't
- only if you make a profit and sell the investment. Holding a stock, like having buying a house, does not result in a tax.

So google and apple don't pay dividends and make a profit?

[brwnbear]

Riccio, do you get taxed if you have investments in companies?

Only if they :
- pay dividends, alot of companies don't
- only if you make a profit and sell the investment. Holding a stock, like having buying a house, does not result in a tax.

So google and apple don't pay dividends and make a profit?

They make a profit (and pay corporate tax)
they do not pay dividends

[Shiftdnb]

Riccio, do you get taxed if you have investments in companies?

Only if they :
- pay dividends, alot of companies don't
- only if you make a profit and sell the investment. Holding a stock, like having buying a house, does not result in a tax.

So google and apple don't pay dividends and make a profit?

They make a profit (and pay corporate tax)
they do not pay dividends

The problem with your example is no one is going to do that. If you're not going to make any money, what is the point of having it? Just so you're not taxed? Is that what you're getting at here?

Riccio, maybe you can help explain his example to me.

[DRiccio21]

you've lost me.

i make a 40 million bucks. i put 20 mil into apple, 20 mil into google.

i'm taxed when i earn the 40 mil. when i buy apple and google, thats using after tax money. i sit on those positions until i die, i'm never taxed on them. if i sell them at any point for a profit, i pay a capital gains tax on it.

[Uuaww]

shit i missed this topic, can I get shelnotes?

[jsence2]

Top 1% Wealth NOT Income

Federal income taxes doesnt tax wealth, it taxes income. I can have $100M in real estate, own a $1B company (and not take a salary), own $20 Billion in Google and Apple, have $20M in a non interest bearing savings account and I wont have any taxable income.

Earlier when I was talking to you about paying more taxes percentagewise this is what I was talking about, you're still taxed but it's taxed considerably lower than what someone with just job income would make so when you take into account all taxes paid.

The example i provided does not include any income. There is no income. If I have 1B stuffed in my couch, how can you tax my income? I dont have any. If there is no income, there can be no tax. The only way to extract more from this scenario is if you have a few police officers go into someones home and start taking stuff because they have to much.

You would have money coming in with your example. Now if you had it in your couch then you wouldn't but your specific example was you owned a company but didn't take income. You're still going to see money from that investment. If you own 20 billion in google and apple you're going to see a return on that investment that will be taxed. As for having 20 Million in a non interest bearing account why the fuck would you do that when the FDIC only insures up to 250,000

You don't get it, Shift. Owning $20 billion of Apple doesn't mean you should be taxed on it--it's not REALLY $20 billion, it's only $20 billion IF SOLD AS IS. When and if the time comes that the person sells their stake or pulls some sort of value from it, guess what? IT GETS TAXED!

You have gone into socialist territory now, saying people should be taxed on things they have, simply because they have a lot. Trust me, the moment these examples you give turn into fluidity and not investments, as in they get value from it in a liquid form, THEY GET TAXED!

[nick]

shit i missed this topic, can I get shelnotes?

its a rich vs poor argument, with 3 on 1 side (Bear, Dave and Jsence) vs Shift on the other just voicing his displeasure.
capitalism vs socialism has been brought up
trendon weighs in and is ignored
cdub is here too, dunno what hes doing
peay is dropping 1 liners
i dropped joke of the year 2011 apparently.

thats about it

[Shiftdnb]

you've lost me.

i make a 40 million bucks. i put 20 mil into apple, 20 mil into google.

i'm taxed when i earn the 40 mil. when i buy apple and google, thats using after tax money. i sit on those positions until i die, i'm never taxed on them. if i sell them at any point for a profit, i pay a capital gains tax on it.

Woah before you guys go attacking me on this subject, this is where I have no clue on stocks. Why own a piece of the company if you're not sharing in the profits until you sell? By the way doing a little googling of google and apple and dividends and people are wondering why they're not paying dividends.

Also, is someone going to actually invest like this?

[Shiftdnb]

This is from Fox News

'Occupy Wall Street' -- It's Not What They're for, But What They're Against

By Sally Kohn

Published October 14, 2011

| FoxNews.com

Critics of the growing Occupy Wall Street movement complain that the protesters don’t have a policy agenda and, therefore, don’t stand for anything. They're wrong. The key isn’t what protesters are for but rather what they’re against -- the gaping inequality that has poisoned our economy, our politics and our nation.

In America today, 400 people have more wealth than the bottom 150 million combined. That’s not because 150 million Americans are pathetically lazy or even unlucky. In fact, Americans have been working harder than ever -- productivity has risen in the last several decades. Big business profits and CEO bonuses have also gone up. Worker salaries, however, have declined.

Most of the Occupy Wall Street protesters aren’t opposed to free market capitalism. In fact, what they want is an end to the crony capitalist system now in place, that makes it easier for the rich and powerful to get even more rich and powerful while making it increasingly hard for the rest of us to get by. The protesters are not anti-American radicals. They are the defenders of the American Dream, the decision from the birth of our nation that success should be determined by hard work not royal bloodlines.

Sure, bank executives may work a lot harder than you and me or a mother of three doing checkout at a grocery store. Maybe the bankers work ten times harder. Maybe even a hundred times harder. But they’re compensated a thousand times more.

The question is not how Occupy Wall Street protesters can find that gross discrepancy immoral. The question is why every one of us isn’t protesting with them.

According to polls, most Americans support the 99% movement, even if they’re not taking to the streets. In fact, support for the Occupy Wall Street protests is not only higher than for either political party in Washington but greater than support for the Tea Party. And unlike the Tea Party which was fueled by national conservative donors and institutions, the Occupy Wall Street Movement is spreading organically from Idaho to Indiana. Institutions on the left, including unions, have been relatively late to the game.

Ironically, the original Boston Tea Party activists would likely support Occupy Wall Street more as well. Note that the original Tea Party didn’t protest taxes, merely the idea of taxation without representation -- and they were actually protesting the crown-backed monopoly of the East India Company, the main big business of the day.

Americans today also support taxes. In fact, two-thirds of voters -- including a majority of Republicans -- support increasing taxes on the rich, something the Occupy Wall Street protests implicitly support. That’s not just anarchist lefty kids. Soccer moms and construction workers and, yes, even some bankers want to see our economy work for the 99%, not just the 1%, and are flocking to Occupy protests in droves.

I’ve even met a number of Libertarians and Tea Party conservatives at these protests. So the critics are right, the Occupy Wall Street movement isn’t the Tea Party. Occupy Wall Street is much, much broader.

Maybe it’s hard to see your best interests reflected in a sometimes rag-tag, inarticulate, imperfect group of protesters. But make no mistake about it: While horrendous inequality is not an American tradition, protest is.And if you’re part of the 99% of underpaid or unemployed Americans crushed in the current economy, the Occupy Wall Street protests are your best chance at fixing the broken economy that is breaking your back.

Sally Kohn is the founder and Chief Education Officer of the Movement Vision Lab, a grassroots think tank. Follow her on Twitter@sallykohn.

[Seeitsaveit13]

shit i missed this topic, can I get shelnotes?

Rabble rabble 1% rabble rabble 99% rabble rabble dave you're rich rabble rabble shift you're a socialist rabble rabble obama rabble rabble

[Shiftdnb]

shit i missed this topic, can I get shelnotes?

Rabble rabble 1% rabble rabble 99% rabble rabble dave you're rich rabble rabble shift you're a socialist rabble rabble obama rabble rabble

[jsence2]

you've lost me.

i make a 40 million bucks. i put 20 mil into apple, 20 mil into google.

i'm taxed when i earn the 40 mil. when i buy apple and google, thats using after tax money. i sit on those positions until i die, i'm never taxed on them. if i sell them at any point for a profit, i pay a capital gains tax on it.

Woah before you guys go attacking me on this subject, this is where I have no clue on stocks. Why own a piece of the company if you're not sharing in the profits until you sell? By the way doing a little googling of google and apple and dividends and people are wondering why they're not paying dividends.

Also, is someone going to actually invest like this?

Um....many reasons:

1) Companies sometimes pay dividends later on
2) ownership in a company, to have a say in how it is run
3) You believe a company's value is going to go up, thus the price of the stock goes up

[Crowes]

you've lost me.

i make a 40 million bucks. i put 20 mil into apple, 20 mil into google.

i'm taxed when i earn the 40 mil. when i buy apple and google, thats using after tax money. i sit on those positions until i die, i'm never taxed on them. if i sell them at any point for a profit, i pay a capital gains tax on it.

Woah before you guys go attacking me on this subject, this is where I have no clue on stocks. Why own a piece of the company if you're not sharing in the profits until you sell? By the way doing a little googling of google and apple and dividends and people are wondering why they're not paying dividends.

Also, is someone going to actually invest like this?

I dont think its really as simple as dave put it. Numerous ways around capital gains and income taxes.

[DRiccio21]

you've lost me.

i make a 40 million bucks. i put 20 mil into apple, 20 mil into google.

i'm taxed when i earn the 40 mil. when i buy apple and google, thats using after tax money. i sit on those positions until i die, i'm never taxed on them. if i sell them at any point for a profit, i pay a capital gains tax on it.

Woah before you guys go attacking me on this subject, this is where I have no clue on stocks. Why own a piece of the company if you're not sharing in the profits until you sell? By the way doing a little googling of google and apple and dividends and people are wondering why they're not paying dividends.

Also, is someone going to actually invest like this?

i'm certainly not trying to attack you.

you own the company because the value of the company can move, you have an 'unrealized gain' but you don't share in any of the companies profits. you share in the value of the stock. a company can make a billion dollars but the price of the stock can go lower and you'll lose money.

and yes, just about every wealthy american has their money tied up in stocks/bonds/real estate/their own companies.

[DRiccio21]

you've lost me.

i make a 40 million bucks. i put 20 mil into apple, 20 mil into google.

i'm taxed when i earn the 40 mil. when i buy apple and google, thats using after tax money. i sit on those positions until i die, i'm never taxed on them. if i sell them at any point for a profit, i pay a capital gains tax on it.

Woah before you guys go attacking me on this subject, this is where I have no clue on stocks. Why own a piece of the company if you're not sharing in the profits until you sell? By the way doing a little googling of google and apple and dividends and people are wondering why they're not paying dividends.

Also, is someone going to actually invest like this?

I dont think its really as simple as dave put it. Numerous ways around capital gains and income taxes.

its exactly as simple as i put it.

if you have losses or you have write offs or donations or shit like that, thats a completely different story... but you're still taxed on the 40 million and you still don't get taxed until you sell something.

[Shiftdnb]

you've lost me.

i make a 40 million bucks. i put 20 mil into apple, 20 mil into google.

i'm taxed when i earn the 40 mil. when i buy apple and google, thats using after tax money. i sit on those positions until i die, i'm never taxed on them. if i sell them at any point for a profit, i pay a capital gains tax on it.

Woah before you guys go attacking me on this subject, this is where I have no clue on stocks. Why own a piece of the company if you're not sharing in the profits until you sell? By the way doing a little googling of google and apple and dividends and people are wondering why they're not paying dividends.

Also, is someone going to actually invest like this?

I dont think its really as simple as dave put it. Numerous ways around capital gains and income taxes.

Okay so going back to what I originally said about being taxed more percentage-wise. If someone in the 1% is paying capital gains taxes and income taxes they actually pay less in all taxes than what I pay in taxes as a percentage of their yearly all around income because basically all of my taxes are just income from my job which would be 25% not including SS and Medicare tax. Am I correct in stating that?

[cdub21]

you've lost me.

i make a 40 million bucks. i put 20 mil into apple, 20 mil into google.

i'm taxed when i earn the 40 mil. when i buy apple and google, thats using after tax money. i sit on those positions until i die, i'm never taxed on them. if i sell them at any point for a profit, i pay a capital gains tax on it.

Woah before you guys go attacking me on this subject, this is where I have no clue on stocks. Why own a piece of the company if you're not sharing in the profits until you sell? By the way doing a little googling of google and apple and dividends and people are wondering why they're not paying dividends.

Also, is someone going to actually invest like this?

I dont think its really as simple as dave put it. Numerous ways around capital gains and income taxes.

Okay so going back to what I originally said about being taxed more percentage-wise. If someone in the 1% is paying capital gains taxes and income taxes they actually pay less in all taxes than what I pay in taxes as a percentage of their yearly all around income because basically all of my taxes are just income from my job which would be 25% not including SS and Medicare tax. Am I correct in stating that?

thats assuming their "income" is less than what you make. odds are they are still making alot, just not as much as they are worth

[brwnbear]

you've lost me.

i make a 40 million bucks. i put 20 mil into apple, 20 mil into google.

i'm taxed when i earn the 40 mil. when i buy apple and google, thats using after tax money. i sit on those positions until i die, i'm never taxed on them. if i sell them at any point for a profit, i pay a capital gains tax on it.

Woah before you guys go attacking me on this subject, this is where I have no clue on stocks. Why own a piece of the company if you're not sharing in the profits until you sell? By the way doing a little googling of google and apple and dividends and people are wondering why they're not paying dividends.

Also, is someone going to actually invest like this?

I dont think its really as simple as dave put it. Numerous ways around capital gains and income taxes.

Okay so going back to what I originally said about being taxed more percentage-wise. If someone in the 1% is paying capital gains taxes and income taxes they actually pay less in all taxes than what I pay in taxes as a percentage of their yearly all around income because basically all of my taxes are just income from my job which would be 25% not including SS and Medicare tax. Am I correct in stating that?

No, you have an incorrect understanding of the federal tax law. The federal tax law is based on a marginal tax.

for joint tax filers:
for the first $16K you pay 10%
on the next $49K you pay 15%
on the next $63K you pay 25%
Above 128K and up to $212K = 28%

You would have to earn a minimum of $350,000 (top 1%) to average 25%

[brwnbear]

And shift, there are only a few people that pay only capital gains tax. The most prominent are retirees that are living off their savings.

Also, bankers are not the wealthies people in America. Look at the Forbes list, there are barely any bankers in there. Most are in energy, technology, and retail