NBA Thread

[ReignOnU]

As for PER, keep in mind that 2pt FG% is a key force in determining PER (and even considered a flaw in the calculation). Lebron, with his physical size/ability, drives a good chunk of his PER through his dunks. If you look through the list of all-time best PER stats, you'll see the direct correlation with high 2pt FG%.

[DRiccio21]

I do think he has an average basketball IQ as it relates to other NBA players. He's shown time after time that he struggles with spacing and ball movement. Again, I've watch quite a few Cleveland games, it's been glaringly obvious.

we can stop saying how many games we've watched. i promise you i watched nealy 60 Cavs games last season between regular season and playoffs. thats not important.

you can't perform at a level as high as lebron does, like him or hate him regardless of his athleticism with a low basketball IQ or even and average one. you can be an elite dunker based on athleticism, an elite passer based on athleticism, an elite rebounder based on athleticism, you simply can not be a complete player like lebron is without high basketball IQ.

its a ridiculous comment really.

As for PER, I'm very familiar with it. Lebron is a stat machine, that's what he does. PER does NOT factor at what cost those stats are accumulated. If a player jumps passing lanes to get steals, but more frequently allows his opponent to score, that's poor defense, not great defense because they have higher than normal steals. If a player has 2 game winning opportunities, goes 1/2 on his shots, but on the 1 he missed, didn't pass it to a wide open player under the rim, then that's not reflected. Stats can be accumulated at the risk of the team.

PER certainly takes into account how they are accumulated. The major knock on PER and why it isn't an end all metric is the defensive aspect of it.
those examples you make are fair and fine. you can say the same thing for bloop hits that should be outs in baseball or shots that roll around the rim and go out in basketball and balls that deflect off the cross bar for kickers. ultimately, with a big enough sample size, the story is told accurately. the same amount of shots player A is making or missing in his career are ultimately around what he'll make around crunch time. its amazing how stats almost always mimic themselves in regular season and postseason yet because of the media we fall in love with the idea of 'clutch'.

As for the argument that Kobe almost cost his team, that comes with the territory. If you're going to be the main guy, the team does/does not with you. The Lakers did... the Cavs did not. You can argue that Kobe could have cost his team the NBA title and I'll tell you that Lebron did cost his team a chance at the title. There is no argument in that.

you missed my point here. Kobe's team won in spite of him. Pau was excellent and he got help from others. Lebron had no other player on his team that helped him like Pau did for Kobe.

Watch the flow the Miami's offense over the next few weeks. You're going to see exactly what I'm talking about. This isn't D-Wade's team anymore. This is Lebron's team and your going to play Lebron basketball whenever Lebron wants. That means clear out, Bosh to the weakside of the lane and stand around, while Lebron goes to the hole or forces a bad 3 from 6' behind the arc. While Boston, Orlando and LA are playing basketball, Miami gets to play Lebronball.

you realize there is a reason why coaches and other players let Lebron do this right? it works. its about as efficient a way of scoring as we've ever seen in the league. if he was forcing 3's 6 ft behind the arc then his stats would reflect that. you watch the games too closely and analyze the negative rather then just looking at the big picture and seeing what is being done as a whole.

[nick]

I know Dave's gonna disagree, iunno about others, but you will see Chris Bosh fail this year. He's the 3rd option and even then once they're losing Lebron goes into overdrive and takes the game over lol. And if they're blowing them out they'll be chillin' on the bench.

Most overpaid 3rd option in NBA history I believe

[Matt90210]

Was I ever on Kobe's dick as much as Riccio is on LeBron's? I sure hope not.

Face it Miami, Jordan ain't walking through that door anytime soon. Stop the comparing.

[jeffdaddy]

Love the stats Dave...

And I remember that Game 7...Kobe was bullshittin....I was fucking pissed. I think it was his dumbass way of showing everyone how much the Lakers needed him, and he was willing to lose to prove it....WHICH IS FUCKING GAY..

The more I look into the stats, the more I see that Lebron is a much more valuable stat producing player than Kobe could ever be. Altho Kobe outplayed Lebron last night in fanstay value ( but its just 1 game)

For me ( since I am on Team Kobe) what seperates him in my eyes his abilty to score his points in the right time. Wether its combatting a 8-0 run by the opponent, or the other way around. Right now Id still take Kobe tho...he looks more comfortable and confident than Lebron does, and this attitude has worked well with the Laker personel.

Kobe is the closest thing I have ever seen to Jordan.
Lebron isnt close because he is so much more powerful, fast and explosive than Jordan ever was. If Lebron can get better, he should be the best basketball player to ever live.

Touching on the Lebron IQ.....I wouldnt say he has "HIGH" IQ...Im suprised at how little some NBA guys "basketball IQ" actually is. Id put him in he AVG "IQ" category...With that body, power, athelticsm, explosion, you dont need much IQ, but he definitely has more than a little. Hes too inconsistent setting his man up when using the on ball screen and is often jumping to pass using that fucking freaky ass athleticsm, which puts him in bad spots a lot of times...

[DRiccio21]

Was I ever on Kobe's dick as much as Riccio is on LeBron's? I sure hope not.

Face it Miami, Jordan ain't walking through that door anytime soon. Stop the comparing.

i wish you could understand its not MY opinion. if Kobe was doing what Lebron was doing i'd be on Kobes dick too. if Durant outplays Lebron this season i'll say Durant is better. I just love basketball and i'm in awe of what Lebron does.

it has nothing to do with 'who i like' or 'who i THINK is better'. I've fallen in love with Lebron simply because i've listened to so many people make the dumb argument that Kobe is better and because i think its so unfathomably ridiculous (and no i'm not exaggerating, i really think anyone who thinks Kobe is better then Lebron is either a Laker homer or delusional or doesn't know basketball) i've continually had to defend him.

[jeffdaddy]

Im a Laker homer
Delusional..
And dont know a lick about basketball

[jeffdaddy]

WHHHEEWWWW....I dont feel so bad...
Jordan doesnt know basketball either...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r_XQrmGlgE[/youtube]

[shel311]

You can scream look at the numbers all you want. Watch.... The... Game..

Please just answer me 1 question.

When EVERY imaginable stat you can pull up shows that Lebron is more clutch than Kobe. For example, Lebron shoots a higher FG% in the clutch than Kobe, and I believe he has done so every year for a few years now.


So please explain to me how Lebron can outperform kobe in the clutch FACTUALLY, but what you see with your eyes when you watch the game shows Kobe making more shots.

I never understood the "I watch the games and see it" stuff when the numbers PROVE what you see to be 10000% wrong.

[shel311]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGoxIvuPtmo[/youtube]

LEADER!!!


ASSASSIN!!!






I love how how guys kill Lebron but love Kobe and conveniently forget ALL about that game 7.

[shel311]

It's easy to throw up incredible numbers when:

A.) You're selfish to the extent of hurting your team.

All I EVER hear is how Lebron is a pass first guy and sometimes isn't selfish enough, but now you're telling me the guy who averages 8 assists per game, top 5 in the league, is selfish.



Don't you think when CLE would run an iso every play for Bron at the end of games, that was the coach's plan? Of course it was.

It's the same exact reason why when Kobe averaged 35 per and took 27 shots per game and everyone called him a ballhog and selfish, they were flat out wrong, IMO.

[Matt90210]

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Philip Rivers
3) LeBron James

[DRiccio21]

those answers are all bullshit. facts are facts. Michael Jordan or Jesus Christ could tell me he thinks Kobe Bryant is better then Lebron and i'd tell Michael Jordan he's wrong.

if you want to say he's got more skill/talent... sure, maybe... thats not something we can alayze so its gonna be based on opinions. fuck, Elton Brand could have more skill then David Lee but that doesn't make him a better player right now. Production matters, thats it.

humans have emtions, whether its Jordan or Jeffdaddy or me. we're all effected by outside influences. you can't get a legit, definitive answer from someones opinions and i'm pretty sure MJ isn't studying basketball-reference at night. like i said earlier, kobe can be more talented then lebron... i dont know that answer. but he's not a more efficient player... no shot.

i'm not saying you don't know anything about basketball. i'm sure you know a ton. i'm just saying your way of judging a players worth to a team is wrong. i've read you and your brothers opinions on basketball for a long time and its usually filled with cliches or 3rd hand info from coaches who said this and people who said that. i'm not saying its bad, you guys both have done a lot with the game and know people... i'm just saying all that is not as valuable as what actually happens on the court.

there are a million different ways people judge basketball, in the end only 1 way matters. the production that player puts forward.

[jeffdaddy]

I would take Barkley, D Robinson and D Wade over Kareem in a heartbeat!! YEAH FUCKING RIGHT!! HAHAHA

Career PER leaders
As of 6 May 2010 (2010 -05-06)[update] (Courtesy of Basketball-Reference.com)

Rank Player PER
1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James^ 26.86
3. Shaquille O'Neal^ 26.59
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade^ 25.67
7. Bob Pettit* 25.37
8. Tim Duncan^ 25.02
9. Neil Johnston* 24.72
10. Charles Barkley* 24.63
11. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
12. Magic Johnson* 24.11
13. Karl Malone* 23.90
14. Dirk Nowitzki^ 23.76
15. Kevin Garnett^ 23.59
16. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
17. Kobe Bryant^ 23.50
18. Larry Bird* 23.50
19. Oscar Robertson* 23.17
20. Yao Ming^ 23.04
21. Jerry West* 22.90
22. Tracy McGrady^ 22.81
23. Elgin Baylor* 22.70
24. Amare Stoudemire^ 22.57
25. Moses Malone* 22.31
26. Julius Erving* 21.97
27. Dolph Schayes* 21.96
28. Pau Gasol^ 21.89
29. John Stockton* 21.83
30. Elton Brand^ 21.80
31. George Gervin* 21.74
32. Dwight Howard^ 21.69
33. Bob Lanier* 21.69
34. Clyde Lovellette* 21.67
35. Manu Ginobili^ 21.65
36. Dominique Wilkins* 21.56
37. Adrian Dantley* 21.51
38. Harry Gallatin* 21.49
39. Chris Bosh^ 21.28
40. Alonzo Mourning 21.24

[DRiccio21]

I would take Barkley, D Robinson and D Wade over Kareem in a heartbeat!! YEAH FUCKING RIGHT!! HAHAHA

Career PER leaders
As of 6 May 2010 (2010 -05-06)[update] (Courtesy of Basketball-Reference.com)

Rank Player PER
1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James^ 26.86
3. Shaquille O'Neal^ 26.59
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade^ 25.67
7. Bob Pettit* 25.37
8. Tim Duncan^ 25.02
9. Neil Johnston* 24.72
10. Charles Barkley* 24.63
11. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
12. Magic Johnson* 24.11
13. Karl Malone* 23.90
14. Dirk Nowitzki^ 23.76
15. Kevin Garnett^ 23.59
16. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
17. Kobe Bryant^ 23.50
18. Larry Bird* 23.50
19. Oscar Robertson* 23.17
20. Yao Ming^ 23.04
21. Jerry West* 22.90
22. Tracy McGrady^ 22.81
23. Elgin Baylor* 22.70
24. Amare Stoudemire^ 22.57
25. Moses Malone* 22.31
26. Julius Erving* 21.97
27. Dolph Schayes* 21.96
28. Pau Gasol^ 21.89
29. John Stockton* 21.83
30. Elton Brand^ 21.80
31. George Gervin* 21.74
32. Dwight Howard^ 21.69
33. Bob Lanier* 21.69
34. Clyde Lovellette* 21.67
35. Manu Ginobili^ 21.65
36. Dominique Wilkins* 21.56
37. Adrian Dantley* 21.51
38. Harry Gallatin* 21.49
39. Chris Bosh^ 21.28
40. Alonzo Mourning 21.24

so you're saying your opinion is that Kareem is better then those guys... okay, got it. i'm saying over the course of their careers those guys produced more efficiently then Kareem did over the course of his ENTIRE career. one of us is definitely right, without question.

also... when you're looking at guys that are this good and this close to each other its not fair to just say 'he's better'. Kareem was .5 behind Barkley. far from a clear cut answer

also its not going to be fair to use their entire careers when using those two guys. kareem played forever and his numbers near the end definitely watered him down. take their 5 peak years and then do the comparison and i bet kareem is pretty high.

[jeffdaddy]

In my humble opinion.......Id rather have Magic Johnson on my team than say Dwayne Wade...

[DRiccio21]

and again. in his peak, you may be right. but right now, thru magics career and thru wades current career, Wade has been more efficient.

Wade is in the middle of his careers. guys that are playing now are going to have higher PERs cause they haven't had the dropoff near the end of their careers yet. Jordan would be even higher if it wasn't for his dropoff with the wizards

do the PER comparison from certain years and see.

Wade had one of the best seasons in NBA history a few years ago in terms of efficiency.

all the data is out there, its just a matter of looking into it.

[DRiccio21]

back to actual basketball

Heat are shooting normal %'s tonight and just blowing out Philly. James Jones is on fire, 6/7 which i'd say is certainly an anomaly but the dude has been wide open on just about each one.

i wish they'd just play Boston, Orlando, LA, Utah, San Antonio, Portland, Houston and Chicago and nobody else. all these other games are going to be incredibly boring like this one.

JJ Hickson is single handidly trying to prove me wrong as he's going off against the C's. 19 points and 5 boards in the 3rd shooting a cool 70%

[ReignOnU]

- I never said Lebron was dumb. If you're going to paraphrase, use the whole comment. He's has an average basketball IQ as it relates to other NBA players. That's exactly what I said and that is exactly what he has shown over his career.

- PER does not account for any of those things I mentioned. PER is a relationship to the player's team. Generally speaking, the Cavs were a worse overall team than the Lakers, so it's much easier for Lebron's PER to be higher and much easier for him to produce a greater portion of his team's stats. (The formula for PER is right on the wiki for it or on Hollinger's blog, I'm sure)

- You also missed my point on the Kobe / Lebron playoff situation. I'll restate it. You can "argue" that Kobe's team almost lost because of him/won in spite of him, but it's a "fact" that Lebron's team lost because of him.

- Lebron's 3pt shooting stats do reflect his poor 3pt shot selection. Unfortunately, the beloved PER, doesn't take this into account like it should. FG/3PT % have 2 results with PER. #1 - A poor 3PT shooter isn't penalized enough, because it uses such a low relative factor. #2 - A tremendous 2PT FG producer can generate a very slanted PER. (Again, just look at your all-time PER list for the trend in top players)

[Cnasty]

the dude has been wide open on just about each one.

This is why a shooter is going to be so huge and they need to make these shots. Sure not 6/7 each night, but a consistent enough shooter to at least make teams think about covering instead of collapsing nonstop on the 3.