NDL Forum

shel311 wrote:

jsence2 wrote:Fact is, Suarez DID cheat; and he did it purposely.

How is it any different then in basketball, you're down by 2 points with :05 left and the team that is leading has the ball, so when the inbound, you "intentionally" foul so you can get the ball back??

I fail to see ANY difference whatsoever with the 2 plays.


I also don't think he cheated whatsoever, he broke a rule. There's a HUGE difference between the 2.

There's a reason that an INTENTIONAL (that's the key word here) handball is often an automatic red card.

IT IS CHEATING.

In basketball, you get six (or five, depending) fouls. They aren't cheating. They're part of the game. In football, a pass interference penalty is a 15 yd or spot foul (depending). That isn't cheating. It's part of the game.

In soccer, you don't get to use your hands, PERIOD. Unless you're the goalie, and even then only inside the 18 yd box. It's CHEATING. Seriously, your analogy is quite awful. If you want to compare it to something, go back to the football game (I honestly can't remember if it was NFL or college) where the guy was on his way to a game-winning touchdown on the final play, and a coach or someone tripped him as he ran down the sidelines. THAT is what you should compare this to.

I had no problem with him doing it; he did what he had to do, and if it had been Donovan doing it, I'd have been thrilled if he'd saved us against Ghana. That said, it's cheating, it's a straight red card, and he should have been suspended two matches (meaning he'd miss the final or the 3rd place match, whichever Uruguay plays in).

jsence2 wrote:If you want to compare it to something, go back to the football game (I honestly can't remember if it was NFL or college) where the guy was on his way to a game-winning touchdown on the final play, and a coach or someone tripped him as he ran down the sidelines. THAT is what you should compare this to.

LOL.

Classic!!! That is INFINITELY more ridiculous than any analogy I made and if you don't see that, prayers sent.

And it's not cheating. If you think it's cheating, then that means you think Argentina cheated to win and should not have won and Ghana got screwed over, and that is blatently false.

shel311 wrote:

jsence2 wrote:If you want to compare it to something, go back to the football game (I honestly can't remember if it was NFL or college) where the guy was on his way to a game-winning touchdown on the final play, and a coach or someone tripped him as he ran down the sidelines. THAT is what you should compare this to.

LOL.

Classic!!! That is INFINITELY more ridiculous than any analogy I made and if you don't see that, prayers sent.

And it's not cheating. If you think it's cheating, then that means you think Argentina cheated to win and should not have won and Ghana got screwed over, and that is blatently false.

No, my analogy is actually quite perfect. Do me a favor, Shel--go read what people in EUROPE are saying about this. The word "cheating" is being thrown around a ton.

Your argument would be like someone from China coming over here and saying "that fat guy for the Raiders just took his helmet off and threw it at the guy who picked off his pass, knocking him down before he could score. That's great strategy!"

The reason I don't really feel bad for Ghana is that when they beat USA, they cheated and disgraced the game with their nonstop falling down, wasting time, and it was topped off by the guy who got taken off on a stretcher, writhing in pain....and the moment they set it down, he hops up and hi-fives his teammates on the bench. Fuck Ghana. That said, I feel that soccer referees should have the leeway that NHL refs and NFL refs have, that if someone cheats to take away an obvious goal or TD (the rule exists, usually if someone from the sideline interferes with a TD run), they can award the score anyways.

Btw, it was Uruguay. Argentina didn't play Ghana

jsence2 wrote:No, my analogy is actually quite perfect.

Hmm.

If it is a perfect analogy, then if Kentucky is playing Florida and a Florida player is going in for a game winning late TD but a UK player comes from the sideline and tackles him and UK just gets a penalty and it ends up winning them the football game, are you HONESTLY saying you'd say:

"I had no problem with him doing it; he did what he had to do, I'm thrilled that he saved us the win"??



If you say yes, then YIKES!! If you say no, then it's not remotely a perfect analogy. Choose wisely.

shel311 wrote:

jsence2 wrote:No, my analogy is actually quite perfect.

Hmm.

If it is a perfect analogy, then if Kentucky is playing Florida and a Florida player is going in for a game winning late TD but a UK player comes from the sideline and tackles him and UK just gets a penalty and it ends up winning them the football game, are you HONESTLY saying you'd say:

"I had no problem with him doing it; he did what he had to do, I'm thrilled that he saved us the win"??



If you say yes, then YIKES!! If you say no, then it's not remotely a perfect analogy. Choose wisely.

No, because you're judging based on my biased reaction to the final OUTCOME. You're forgetting here, Ghana had a chance to win the match--and they fucked it up. Therefore, I don't feel bad for them--especially after the shit they pulled against USA.

Besides, you're asking my reaction to something that would end a losing streak to Florida going back over 20 straight years. He could stab the guy and I probably would have no problem with it

Like I said Shel, go read the papers in Europe. Read the reaction of people who watch this sport day in, day out, and grew up with it. I think I'll tend to give their viewpoints a bit more credibility than yours, especially when you didn't even know the proper offside rule.

shel311 wrote:If you say yes, then YIKES!! If you say no, then it's not remotely a perfect analogy. Choose wisely.

jsence2 wrote:especially when you didn't even know the proper offside rule.

WTF are you talking about?

I think all this World Cup stuff is driving you off the deep end.

I honestly have zero clue what you're talking about.

Hart4Heisman wrote:shel isnt wrong with what hes sayin

What was your PayPal account again?

Easportsbama wrote:

shel311 wrote:If you say yes, then YIKES!! If you say no, then it's not remotely a perfect analogy. Choose wisely.

i have that mask.

nick wrote:i have that mask.

I bet it looks super cool when you combo it with your Dark Knight hat.

i think soccer's more of a gentleman's game where you're supposed to let things happen.

In mainstream US sports like we love, things like this are acceptable, while in a sport like soccer or tennis/golf you're supposed to accept being beaten if your opponent does something good or when you make a mistake. This would make it "cheating" for Suarez to do it in these games, but not the American ones.

In conclusion, I'm not a fan of calling everything cheating, so Suarez is my boy! Fuck Ghana!

Its not cheating Jsense. He broke a rule and was penalized. Its no different than comming into a tackle with your spikes or elbowing a player. It is a rule, it was broken. Its a handball, it happens all the time.

Cheating is what Tevez did in the Mexico game and what the German GK did in the England game. In both of those instances the player deceived the ref. Sorry bud, but you are wrong here.

Also, since the evidence to your position is claiming that all these Euro papers are agreeing with you, why dont you do us "ignorant" people a favor and link a few (dont try and pull the crap that you get them delivered either, nobody is that retarded).

shel311 wrote:

nick wrote:i have that mask.

I bet it looks super cool when you combo it with your Dark Knight hat.

meh

Yeah, why was DeCaprio wearing that WVU hat? Dont know the connection there.

Germany played a wonderful game, Did anyone hear Klinsman talking about Germany's 10 year plan afterwards. How they have went back and started a plan with the youth clubs, building all the way up to their National team, on a style and how they want to play.

They seem to be few years ahead of other countries on how they are gearing towards their National Team, also believe they were u20 champions last year, which again shows the strength of their program.

Also, remember all the doom and gloom from the English & American reports about Ballack being out, in the end probably best for Germany he was out. They have turned the page on that style and Ballack has seen the last of his World Cup games.

brwnbear wrote:Its not cheating Jsense. He broke a rule and was penalized. Its no different than comming into a tackle with your spikes or elbowing a player. It is a rule, it was broken. Its a handball, it happens all the time.

Cheating is what Tevez did in the Mexico game and what the German GK did in the England game. In both of those instances the player deceived the ref. Sorry bud, but you are wrong here.

Also, since the evidence to your position is claiming that all these Euro papers are agreeing with you, why dont you do us "ignorant" people a favor and link a few (dont try and pull the crap that you get them delivered either, nobody is that retarded).

Never once branded you as "ignorant" but um, ok.

There are certain rules that, when you break them, you are blatantly cheating. In baseball, if you balk it's not cheating; if you spit on the ball, it is. In hockey, if you make a line change too soon and get called for too many men on the ice, it's not cheating; but if you have too much curve in your stick, it is. Some rules, when broken, are just penalized as part of the game and that's it. But some rules, when you blatantly violate them, you circumvent them to gain an advantage, then you are cheating. Whether you meant to or not, whether it was just heat of the moment or planned, it's cheating none the less.

Handball is the ONE RULE you cannot break as a soccer player (and if you watch the replay, not only did he do it, his other teammate, Fucile, TRIED to do it as well). Why do you think there was so much venom towards Henry when he did it? What amazes me is that so many of the people who vilified him as a cheater, are now defending Suarez. Don't get me wrong--I don't blame him for what he did, and had he done it for the USA or Italy, I'd have been THRILLED. I also don't think he INTENTIONALLY cheated, like Maradona (Hand of God) or Henry. I think he just reacted, and therefore the in-match punishment was proper. But he didn't simply put his hands up to block it; he SWUNG them. That to men goes beyond simply putting your arm out to block it (like many do reactively at times), he was thinking "I must keep this from going in". As someone put it, and I agree with this 100%--he was a hero who cheated.

My problem is that FIFA punished him the same way they punished Kaka for doing abso-fucking-lutely nothing in the Portugal match, with a ONE MATCH BAN. Now you tell me, does the punishment fit the crime when viewed that way? Especially when (and this is what kinda swung my viewpoint of what he did) he BRAGGED about it after the match, saying “The Hand of God now belongs to me,” Suarez said. “I made the best save of the tournament.” The most ironic part of this is, his showing during this tournament may lead to my favorite team (Manchester United) buying him.

Straight from recognized writers (AP, UPI, major networks, etc):

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... gD9GNP4Q80

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... Ghana.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/paulfletcher ... llain.html--this one has some interesting comments, including one which goes to Shel's point of "strategy" (which again, I agree that I'd be happy if my guy did it, but it's still cheating):

From a neutral/Ghana perspective, Suarez is a cheat. But if I were in Suarez's position I would have done the same thing, definate elimination or probable elimination? No contest.

http://blogs.reuters.com/soccer/2010/07 ... rez-crime/

iownu wrote:Yeah, why was DeCaprio wearing that WVU hat? Dont know the connection there.

Germany played a wonderful game, Did anyone hear Klinsman talking about Germany's 10 year plan afterwards. How they have went back and started a plan with the youth clubs, building all the way up to their National team, on a style and how they want to play.

They seem to be few years ahead of other countries on how they are gearing towards their National Team, also believe they were u20 champions last year, which again shows the strength of their program.

Also, remember all the doom and gloom from the English & American reports about Ballack being out, in the end probably best for Germany he was out. They have turned the page on that style and Ballack has seen the last of his World Cup games.

Yeah, Italy needs to do the same thing.

Klinnsman is one of the guys I respect the most in the business. I would LOVE to see him become the US Men's coach when Bradley's time is done; and if not, I'd love to see him involved in the USSF in some capacity. He made some terrific points when talking about why the USA struggles to develop so much talent:

1) USA has it backwards. As he put it, we are the only nation where people have to PAY to develop in order to earn a scholarship, which he has witnessed first-hand living in California. In other nations, soccer academies OFFER scholarships in order to bring kids in and DEVELOP them (see Freddie Adu when he was about 13, Manchester United, Inter Milan, Real Madrid, AC Milan all made offers to bring him into their youth systems). Here, you have parents dishing out thousands to get their kids into Javanon, traveling teams, etc in the hopes of getting a college scholarship. Until that changes, you will see promising talents leave soccer due to financial constraints, or going to cheaper sports.

2) The USSF needs to go into the inner cities and hold more clinics, because that is where the Hispanic minority often resides as he pointed out. Reach out to children whose families love soccer, bring them into the fold, and you will find families who will be more likely to support them in the sport and push them to do better, instead of pushing them towards football and basketball. A prime example, he pointed out, was Hercules Gomez.

3) He said that the MLS needed to take a more active role in creating youth teams. While this might not be possible with the meager means (respectively, compared to Euro clubs) that the MLS possesses, there is definitely more that they could do to reach out and promote the game to youth.

jsence2 wrote:
1) USA has it backwards. As he put it, we are the only nation where people have to PAY to develop in order to earn a scholarship, which he has witnessed first-hand living in California. In other nations, soccer academies OFFER scholarships in order to bring kids in and DEVELOP them (see Freddie Adu when he was about 13, Manchester United, Inter Milan, Real Madrid, AC Milan all made offers to bring him into their youth systems). Here, you have parents dishing out thousands to get their kids into Javanon, traveling teams, etc in the hopes of getting a college scholarship. Until that changes, you will see promising talents leave soccer due to financial constraints, or going to cheaper sports.

Assuming soccer follows the same path as hockey, this will come in time. In the 90's, I played for an invitation league/federation and I sucked, but still was invited. It was brand new - and now is the modern-day AJHL (http://www.atlantichockey.org/ajhl.php) - and they were looking for anybody with a pulse and some talent.

In 12 years, it went from a podunk bullshit group of hodgepodge teams and players to a full-fledged junior league that pumps out talent. And, believe me, New York isn't a hockey hotbed to begin with.

It will take some time ... and money; private money. When the MLS grows to where it wants to be, it can open up NFL-inspired youth camps that supply equipment and exposure to seven-year-olds. My sister played in a women's hockey tournament solely funded by money from fundraisers earned through recent Hall of Famer Cammi Granato. Maybe Landon Donovan will be that guy for soccer in the future.

Henry's handball is incomparable to Suarez's. Anyone trying to do that is a fool.

jsence2 wrote: 2) The USSF needs to go into the inner cities and hold more clinics, because that is where the Hispanic minority often resides as he pointed out. Reach out to children whose families love soccer, bring them into the fold, and you will find families who will be more likely to support them in the sport and push them to do better, instead of pushing them towards football and basketball. A prime example, he pointed out, was Hercules Gomez.

This is something else I've been saying for a while. I'm saying this without any racial stereotypes in mind but it would definitely help the US soccer program with some of the obvious athletic deficiencies that have been so apparent in this World Cup and others. In addition, the US needs players who are a bit "edgier"; basically we need a few thugs out there in defense and midfield kind of like Gattuso used to be for Italy back when Italy played soccer. I have to think that it wouldn't be that hard to push soccer in inner city areas. One of the reasons that basketball is so popular is that all you really need it a ball and a basket or two which are found in pretty much any park. Soccer is the same. All you need is a field and a ball.

Jsence...

It is painfully obvious we are never going to come to a concensus. You are in the belief that breaking some rules are cheating while breaking others are not. Your whole system is based on an objective view based on the rule that was broken vs. the intent in breaking the rule. I would assume that you would think that holding in football is cheating. That when the catcher moves the glove back into the strick zone it is cheating. That cross checking is cheating. That fouling someone who is about to dunk on you is cheating. That getting a goal while offsides is cheating.

I dong think any of those are cheating because you dont try to deceive the spirit of the game and gain an advantage. Corked bats and steriod are cheating because you try to deceive the spirit of the game by doing something that is not easibly verified. Henry's handball was cheating because he tried to deceive the ref in an attempt to gain an advantage. I dont believe that Suarez tried to deceive anyone. I believe he committed a foul and was punished for that foul. Had Ghana made the PK, no one would be talking about this and everyone would be saying how justiced was served. But since they missed and lost in overtime, now it is cheating. Those articles that you posted, dont say anything that changes my mind about what happend.

Now if you want to change the rules to give a two game suspension for a straight red, I am fine with that. What I dont want is someone changing the rules of the game half way through. That would be the worse thing you could do.

BTW - This is why so many people dissagree with you about Calipari. First, using a player that is not eligible in a game is cheating. Its in the bylaws and USC just got hammered for it. Calipari used ineligible players at UMass, and at Memphis. You claim..

"I also don't think he INTENTIONALLY cheated" and "he was a hero who cheated."

Calipari, whether intentional or not, cheated by using an ineligible player. By your definition, he is a cheater. You cant have it both ways.

As I said, because we have different belief systems on what constitudes cheating, we are never going to agree so we might as well stop talking about it. To me Suarez didnt cheat while Calipari did. To you Suarez is a cheater and Calipari is not.