NDL Forum

The governor’s and mayor’s offices say the plan was always for state troopers to stay just two weeks.



Gov. Brown's office told WW it believed Fox's statement was "not accurate" and that OSP had been expected to leave after two weeks. Mayor Ted Wheeler's office confirmed that such a timeline was its understanding as well.

When contacted about OSP's departure, Fox appeared to correct the record, telling WW exactly that: "This decision was based on the fact that our two-week commitment ended last night," Fox emailed. "Troopers are returning to the communities that they are assigned to serve and protect."

(He did not respond when asked to explain the discrepancy in his earlier statements to the other news outlets when WW asked about it.)

A cop lying? Shocker

shel311 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:38 pm A couple of days ago the Portland's DA dropped charges against hundreds who had been arrested, many for felonies, because they have a "right to speak."


So the Oregon State Police who has been assisted with the daily riots called it a day, and said they're done and not assisting Portland any more with the riots.

I don't understand the DA's position here on this.

The more I sit back and watch "news," "media," and social media, the more I realize the larger differences that most people seem to overlook. This is part 1 of my self-indulged egotistical rambling... or whatever you want to call it.

Each side builds up a narrative like "all liberals want is socialism" and "the old white guys on the right are racist." How often to you sit down and look at the actual values on each side?

There's the obvious core issues that general tend to divide the parties...
- Social services support
- Health care (kind of the same as above now)
- Gun rights
- Death Penalty
- Abortion

These seem to be pretty clear and have been consistent for a long time. Some will point to gay marriage rights, but I'm not sure we're ever going to be in a place where that's an issue that matters. Rights are there to stay and will expand in areas that they aren't fully there. Religion, it's influence may be able to go into that list. Other stuff is a bit more muddy... a lot of gray areas and crossover.

Generally speaking, the talking points of the right have remained consistent for years. Some ideas have opened up (gay marriage, weed legalization, prison reform, and others), but I think that's more due to moderate ideas shifting into the right. These core ideas that the right holds aren't really focused at any race/ethnicity/sex. They are core principles to what they believe.
- Less social services: They believe in less government spending and more self responsibility.
- Private health care: They believe in less government involvement, more self responsibility, and capitalism (this is where they take it to)
- Gun rights: They point to the Constitution. Many of them don't trust the government.
- Death Penalty: An older values principle, but driven by self responsibility.
- Abortion: Again, values principle, driven by self responsibility.

It's a very clear them, very consistent. So I've tried numerous times to understand what the counter-argument to these things is. If there's someone that can formulate something, I'd be open to hearing it. When I look at it, I see this:
- More social services: People with more money pay for people with less. Take care of the poor/needy.
- Universal health care: People with more money pay for people with less. Take care of the poor/needy.
- Restrict gun rights: It limits deaths.
- Death Penalty: All lives are precious (channeling Morgan here)
- Abortion: My body, my choice.

On the first 2, my immediate reaction is that the government sucks at implementing programs and people will inherently manipulate systems they implement. I don't have an issue with helping people that need help. I have a big issue with people that abuse systems and get free rides. Private companies can consistently outperform the government when it comes to getting shit done.

For gun rights, I'm ok with some logical restrictions. We already have quite a few. But really, it's not a hot button issue. Our problem here isn't registered weapons. The numbers on this stuff are clear... it's illegal handguns. (you know a good way to start deterring it? keep reading).

As for the death penalty, I don't think we use it enough. If your morale ground is that we shouldn't kill another human, then so be it. Morales typically aren't something that are easy to argue and in many cases, it's futile. But I fully believe that if you've clearly killed another human with intent, then you should be sentenced to death and it should be quick to happen. Our justice system is in such a jacked up place where we can give crazy long sentences for drug possession (not distribution mind you), while violent offenders are often out well before they should be.

Finally, abortion, you're just not going to change the mind of a pro-life individual. The variance between them is really just the exception for rape or mother's life. There is a point where that is a life. Based on where you believe that point is, then beyond it, it's murder. The idea that it's "my body, my choice," kind of blows me away. How can someone genuinely believe that it's 'their body' beyond the point that there is a heartbeat? Beyond the point that you can visually see arms, legs, and head? Beyond the point that the baby could be extracted and live outside of the body? Maybe it's not the first stage that you'd have to recognize as valid, but seeing people talk about late term abortion... yikes. Crazy world we're in.

So now that I've covered the core items and the consistency (at least what I see on the right), let's go back to those remarks about republicans. The stereotype is that they are for the rich guy. The reality is, they are for the person that wants to put in some effort and try to become the rich guy (or at least earn their keep). Well, they are racist! Why? No one is trying to enact rules that prevents one race from doing something another race can't. That's not a thing now and that's not ever going to be a thing. Understand, that principle not only works for restricting a race from doing something, but it also works for unfairly giving a race something as well. Why doesn't the left attack the right on principles? I hear the line "the right wants grandma to die." That's usually related to a bunch of BS about limiting funding for pre-existing conditions. Every time I've looked at details, this has either been blatantly false or at a minimum grossly overstated. I don't see anyone saying "republicans think you need to work and contribute to society, they are so bad!" They do say "republicans want to tell women what to do with their bodies!" Factually not true. They want to tell you what you can't do to another body. I've said it many times, I really don't care what you do to yourself, just don't mess with anyone else and don't expect me to pay for it when you make a dumbass decision. You know, that's kind of the self-responsibility thing.

Ultimately, the punchline to this is that I see one side that is fairly consistent and uniform in their opinions. I see another that can't stand on principles and instead they make it into an attack on something that seems evil, even if it's not what is driving the point.

This post talks about the issues... part 2 is much shorter, but gets to the real point...

If you didn't read part 1, that's ok, but it's just some underlying thoughts behind this pretty basic depiction that I've thought for a long time and even more so lately...

I've said for years now that in the end, democrats as they are today, won't continue together. In a generic phrase, "The left will eat their own." It really comes down to a compatibility issue. Can you be for loose Muslim immigration and be for women's rights? Seems sketchy to me, but just a simple example.

Something I noticed during the Trump-Clinton debates and it was very obvious in the recent democrat debates... how many American flags did you see?

Generally speaking, I'm far more libertarian than traditional republican. But it hit me over the last few weeks why I REALLY dislike how dishonest people have become with their views. I don't know the underlying reason (hatred for Trump?), but I do know that the way identity politics are leveraged and used to manipulate people and how that's trickled down through social media, is really disgusting.

With the dem party, you're a drop in one of many buckets of various colors and attributes. With the republican party, you're a drop in one bucket that has 3 colors, stars and stripes.

It sounds kind of hokey to even type that. But it's pretty consistent across the board.

These same people that lean right seemingly all believe the same things...
- They don't support BLM, but they do believe black lives matter... and so do blue lives and all other American lives.
- They don't care if you're from Mexico, Canada or another country, but they do care if you're here legally, being a productive member and that you put American first.
- They don't care what your sexual preference is, as long as it's a consenting adult.
- They don't care if you're female or male, but they do believe that you are female or male and you'll participate in that which is your original physical state.

Support the country you're in above the country you're from. Contribute. Use help when you need it. Follow the law. If you don't, expect appropriate punishment. What's really interesting is that you may not align on the areas I talked about in part 1, but if you hit these marks, you'll be accepted by most just the same.

When look at all of my friends on each side and I count the number of people that have "unfriended" someone or wrote them off because of their political leaning... they all fall on 1 side. Maybe it's just me, but look around and see what you find.

There's no question that each side has their bad eggs, the outlying 5% or so either way. What's at the heart of the matter is the 90%.

If it didn't seem that the reality of American politics was that conservatives have less than a handful of elections left to be relevant on a national level if might be worth debating why most of that is ridiculous. If any of that was in anyway rooted in reality the Republican electorate would be expanding not losing voters for most of my lifetime.

Well said Reign...a big part of why this stuff fails is it’s been made out to be left/right with no middle ground for every topic...life is grey with very few things being black or white yet our current state makes everything right verse left...hopefully we will see a shift and get some new voices from the middle that can bring people together and create some movement forward.

I also think that it starts with strong community leadership and accountability.

footballkelly31 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:16 pm Well said Reign...a big part of why this stuff fails is it’s been made out to be left/right with no middle ground for every topic...life is grey with very few things being black or white yet our current state makes everything right verse left...hopefully we will see a shift and get some new voices from the middle that can bring people together and create some movement forward.

I also think that it starts with strong community leadership and accountability.

Welcome back to the forums brother, stop in more often

Been checking it out periodically...looking for a new college football game to drop, still playing 14

I just threw away a '12

https://twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status ... 71456?s=19

No biggie, just your possible next VP kinda admitting she lied and called someone a racist and that's ok because it was a debate.

shel311 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:46 pm https://twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status ... 71456?s=19

No biggie, just your possible next VP kinda admitting she lied and called someone a racist and that's ok because it was a debate.

I wish she would be front and center with her comments. They would be destroyed with her flip floppimg

And watching that video, she is such a fake ass. I hope Tulsi Gabbard comes out and lays the wood to her again

There will never be any middle ground or coming together until we as voters come together on one issue to supersede all other issues and that is abolishing citizens united/big money in politics. After said change then whatever the majority of this country is behind will actually effect change and the path we take as a country until then they are just keeping the blinders on us while they rape and pillage our country for the benefit of a select few.

footballkelly31 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:16 pm Well said Reign...a big part of why this stuff fails is it’s been made out to be left/right with no middle ground for every topic...life is grey with very few things being black or white yet our current state makes everything right verse left...hopefully we will see a shift and get some new voices from the middle that can bring people together and create some movement forward.

I also think that it starts with strong community leadership and accountability.

This right here, is something that SOOOO many people do not understand. When I've had some really good discussions with people with opposing views, I've often asked them to tell me how Trump being president has changed their life. Give me the facts, not the feelings. I don't want to hear about "he said" kind of stuff. What has he done to make your day to day life worse? No one has cleared that hurdle cleanly. 0 for 20+.

Then I just move off of that question and I go right to something like this... who did you vote for in the Spring off cycle election? What issues have you helped support or deal with in your city/county elections? Dead silence most of the time, maybe an occasional comment on a school levy/bond or local city tax.

The 2 biggest changes that I can recently think of for most people were how the deductions were handled on your taxes awhile back and Obamacare. Now disregarding my stance on universal healthcare, Obamacare really didn't impact me, nor did it impact many of my friends. There was some cost and quality of coverage differences, but for most of my circle, it was hardly an issue. The tax piece with Trump actually did catch me a little off-guard and that's really on me for not understanding it completely. But net impact, again, was a non-issue... and for most of my friends, was a win.

Contrast that with some of the pain in the ass situations that I've either worked directly with locally or been impacted by:
- City revoking tax reciprocity
- City strong-arming community into .5 % tax increase, re-enlisting reciprocity at 15% less.
- School operating levy that had failed the last 4 attempts.
- New school levy that has failed the last 3 attempts.
- Zoning changes that changed the minimum standard for building new homes and for new businesses operating
- Consideration of a JEDD (Joint Economic Development District)
- Annexation of township land into the city

These are just the major ones that have popped off the top of my head. Some of these have directly impacted others. All of them have had as much impact as the worst of the things that have happened national level since 2008. (I'm not well versed prior to that unfortunately)

I'm not saying that the presidential election or other elections such as senate and house aren't important. I do have a serious concern that at one point, we'll see a political side that has full control of everything and when that happens, we may get major changes that have serious consequences. But in most cases, the elected officials and policy issues that have the largest impact on your life are at your city/county level.
g

shel311 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:46 pm https://twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status ... 71456?s=19

No biggie, just your possible next VP kinda admitting she lied and called someone a racist and that's ok because it was a debate.

Kamala Harris basically accused Joe Biden of being a racist during the debates and her only defense is “it was a debate”.

Looking forward to this answer, when asked why she locked up some many black people in California...
"It was just a job, hahahaha!"

Crowes wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:32 pm There will never be any middle ground or coming together until we as voters come together on one issue to supersede all other issues and that is abolishing citizens united/big money in politics. After said change then whatever the majority of this country is behind will actually effect change and the path we take as a country until then they are just keeping the blinders on us while they rape and pillage our country for the benefit of a select few.

I'd be shocked if 1 out of 10 people that I know, have a clue what Citizens United is and what has happened with it. The ruling could be changed tomorrow and it wouldn't impact this election or likely have major impacts on any election in our lifetime. There are other methods, which are already being used, that would be immune to the ruling being turned over. It's no accident that Hilary Clinton pushed so hard to have it overturned. You don't think the "Clinton Foundation" may have ended up with a strong influence? You don't think that instead of direct investment, that labor unions couldn't get away with "forced volunteering?"

We're not coming together until we "fix" the media and "fix" social media. I don't have the slightest idea what that "fix" is. It's so complex at this point and there are so many underlying issues with how people interact, that I almost feel like it's out of our control.

ReignOnU wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:06 pm

footballkelly31 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:16 pm Well said Reign...a big part of why this stuff fails is it’s been made out to be left/right with no middle ground for every topic...life is grey with very few things being black or white yet our current state makes everything right verse left...hopefully we will see a shift and get some new voices from the middle that can bring people together and create some movement forward.

I also think that it starts with strong community leadership and accountability.

I've often asked them to tell me how Trump being president has changed their life. Give me the facts, not the feelings. I don't want to hear about "he said" kind of stuff. What has he done to make your day to day life worse? No one has cleared that hurdle cleanly. 0 for 20+.

I feel like this question has got easier to answer recently. The wife get meds sent thru the mail. The most recent shipment took twice as long to arrive. Anyone else noticed a difference since he has actively started sabotaging their efficiency? Trump's fault or no?

Crowes wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:23 pm

ReignOnU wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:06 pm

footballkelly31 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:16 pm Well said Reign...a big part of why this stuff fails is it’s been made out to be left/right with no middle ground for every topic...life is grey with very few things being black or white yet our current state makes everything right verse left...hopefully we will see a shift and get some new voices from the middle that can bring people together and create some movement forward.

I also think that it starts with strong community leadership and accountability.

I've often asked them to tell me how Trump being president has changed their life. Give me the facts, not the feelings. I don't want to hear about "he said" kind of stuff. What has he done to make your day to day life worse? No one has cleared that hurdle cleanly. 0 for 20+.

I feel like this question has got easier to answer recently. The wife get meds sent thru the mail. The most recent shipment took twice as long to arrive. Anyone else noticed a difference since he has actively started sabotaging their efficiency? Trump's fault or no?

The USPS was designed to be a semi-private entity and self-sustaining. That's not the case any longer. The USPS lost $69 billion between '07 and '18. They owe $48.2 billion in payments for retiree health and pension benefits. While Trump may have done something recently to cause a stir, the USPS has been quickly becoming a serious issue for a long time. They lost $8.8 billion in '19. You can blame UPS or Fedex for most of it, but they were also seriously mismanaged for many years. As with any business, you'd adapt to a changing climate.

As for Trump 'sabotaging' them... he's been critical of the USPS for a very long time. This is nothing new. He hasn't functionally changed anything.
I've seen fingers pointed at some of the turnover, but operationally, I haven't heard of changes. The issue in the news is that the Dems wanted to pack a bill with $25b, then $10b (believe this is what I read regarding the numbers) for the postal service, claiming it was to support increased mail-in voting. So let's just go with the lower number here... $10b to cover 1 additional item of mail to and from every citizen in the US. Their operating revenue last year was $71b, their operating expenses were $80b. So their asking for 12.5% of their entire annual operating expenses to cover 1 piece of mail to/from each citizen. I know math isn't a strong suit around here, but I think we can agree that giving 12.5% of last year's operating expenses, to cover mail-in voting, is absurd.

In terms of delays, there's verifiable information available from a large study in 2015 that outlines the increased delays going back to 2010. If you're meds are taking 2 weeks, you should probably discuss that with the provider. That's a serious health risk for a lot of people.

Annual Revenue / Expense:


# of pieces of mail diminishing (lower income) vs # of places to deliver to increasing (higher expenses):


One of many articles that cover Trump having an issue with the USPS. This one is from 2018 and you'll see that a lot of the stuff that I've pointed out, is also pointed out here. It's really not that complicated, but it happens to be really convenient to claim that he's intentionally doing something hurtful because he wants to rig the election.
https://money.cnn.com/2018/04/13/news/c ... index.html