NDL Forum

Shiftdnb wrote:

DRiccio21 wrote:he has worked harder than and taken bigger risks than any of us could possibly fathom because joe public had pipe dreams about flipping multiple houses when they couldnt afford to own any.

Listen, it's one mans opinion who has worked harder than another. You say he works harder than anyone, I say a good teacher works harder than him, a teacher that motivates an inner city kid to do good is just as good as producing a millionaire in my eyes. I say a good nurse works harder than him, a nurse that's trained hundreds of nurses to take care of people in their biggest time of need is the same as producing 1000 millionaires. It's all your opinion.

Dave just gave you an example of how people still have the opportunity to rise into the top 1% and a way to raise tax revenue. So what do you do, you change the focus.

Again that's your opinion. I'm not going to argue with you about how amazing of a guy he is. I'm just saying there are a lot of others deserving of his monetary status but settle for what they get to do good in the world.

brwnbear wrote: Dave just gave you an example of how people still have the opportunity to rise into the top 1% and a way to raise tax revenue. So what do you do, you change the focus.

Listen man, if you believe you have a chance to get in the 1% than please by all means do and then I'll eat crow when you get there. And he never gave me a way to raise tax revenue. He gave me the same thing we've been trying since the Bush Tax Cuts and they haven't worked. Or they have for the top 1% who have yet to invest back into the economy because there is so much scary things going on right now. It's a big fucking circle jerk of I've got your money

Shiftdnb wrote:Again that's your opinion. I'm not going to argue with you about how amazing of a guy he is. I'm just saying there are a lot of others deserving of his monetary status but settle for what they get to do good in the world.

How many billions of dollars of economic activity does a nurse create?

First of all, before I go on about my hatred of the welfare laws in Florida, let me just remind you that I am not a liberal. Or a conservative. In fact, I actually dislike liberals. They don't use reason while conservatives are just morons. I'd rather be around morons because you can at least talk to them; it is impossible to reason someone out of a spot they didn't use reason to get in the first place. That said, my political party/leaning is the What the Fuck Works Party. Gun to my head? I am a Libertarian. I just want to point that out since you can't have an economics, social, or political discussion without being pigeonholed in two sentences; it is how we are wired. Now ...

... I was fucking fuming when I saw that not only get into Washington, but pass through. My first thought was, "Hey, when the legislators also have to pee in a cup in front of a stranger to receive public money, then I will be down." Then I read some comments and I realized, "Fuck, THE GODDAMNED CONSTITUTION!" You see, for all the "it's my money" and "well, that makes sense" thoughts you might have, there is one small thing you forgot to think about: Due Process.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." - Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution

Drug testing someone where you have no probable cause is a gross violation of nearly every word in that passage, no matter why you are doing it. You might say, "well, I got drug tested at my job!" The Fourth Amendment applies to the government -- not to private employers and nobody voted for Ross Perot, so as far as I know, the United States government is not a private enterprise.

Again, I will repeat it since this is very important: it is a violation of the Fourth Amendment as there isn't probable cause to believe a crime was committed. It isn't complex or negotiable. Somewhere in your life, you have taken a perk from the government (tax break, use a park, etc) and they have no right to search, seize, or make you piss in a cup. When you beat your wife and she goes to work with a broken cheekbone and bruises, yeah, then the cops have the right. Simply existing and receiving welfare that you helped pay for does not forfeit your Fourth Amendment rights.

I know I can come off as stubborn, but there really aren't any ifs, ands, or buts about it. It is rather clearcut. Shit, why stop there? Drug tests before going to the Motor Vehicles? How about when we call the cops or firemen? What about when we use government services like, oh I don't know ... ROADS! And this isn't even to mention that this was nothing more than a complete fucking charade by that cocksucker Scott to get business for his own wife's drug testing company!!! Again, we should demand a drug test before elected officials are sworn into office.

But let's just pretend all of that above doesn't appeal to you. Fuck those welfare recipients that drive down my road and molest my kids while screaming, "I BOUGHT DRUGS USING WELFARE MONEY!" Let's pretend. It still is dumb to want this law to stay in effect.

Remember, welfare is not there to assist those who cannot help themselves. It is provided to mollify the lower rungs of society to protect you and your family from nomadic gangs of starving and diseased people breaking into your home so they can get some goddamn food. You need to concern yourself with what would happen if we took away the last resort for that portion of the population. I assure you that a crackhead won't say, "Well, shucks, I need to get off heroin or I won't be getting my check and then I'll have to rob and stab Joe Davis' wife and kids."

You are paying - all 1/1000th of a cent or whatever nominal amount - for the greater good of society.

brwnbear wrote:

Shiftdnb wrote:Again that's your opinion. I'm not going to argue with you about how amazing of a guy he is. I'm just saying there are a lot of others deserving of his monetary status but settle for what they get to do good in the world.

How many billions of dollars of economic activity does a nurse create?

Why does a person have to create economic activity to be worth something in this world?

Shiftdnb wrote:

brwnbear wrote: Dave just gave you an example of how people still have the opportunity to rise into the top 1% and a way to raise tax revenue. So what do you do, you change the focus.

Listen man, if you believe you have a chance to get in the 1% than please by all means do and then I'll eat crow when you get there. And he never gave me a way to raise tax revenue. He gave me the same thing we've been trying since the Bush Tax Cuts and they haven't worked. Or they have for the top 1% who have yet to invest back into the economy because there is so much scary things going on right now. It's a big fucking circle jerk of I've got your money

- When someone creates 1000 millionaires, it increases tax revenue.
- You dont have to eat crow, there are a lot of people who came from modest backgrounds that are now in families who bring in a combined $350K. Those are the families that you think are causing the worlds problems and those are the people you want to pay for your misfortune.

brwnbear wrote:families who bring in a combined $350K. Those are the families that you think are causing the worlds problems and those are the people you want to pay for your misfortune.

I dont' know where you got that number from but I found this.

http://www.kiplinger.com/tools/income_rank/

type in 350k

Your $350,000 adjusted gross income (AGI) puts you in the top 5% of earners.

EDIT and what the fuck is my misfortune, have you not read my posts about the fact that I am perfectly fine financially

Shiftdnb wrote:

brwnbear wrote:

Shiftdnb wrote:Again that's your opinion. I'm not going to argue with you about how amazing of a guy he is. I'm just saying there are a lot of others deserving of his monetary status but settle for what they get to do good in the world.

How many billions of dollars of economic activity does a nurse create?

Why does a person have to create economic activity to be worth something in this world?

A person's worth is based on their profitability or ability to create wealth or production (Someone will then pay for said production and that allows salaries to be paid). And that salary has to be paid by the ability to create profit. A teacher is paid based on their ability to teach future generations that will hopefully contribute to society in a positive economic way. A nurse is paid based on their ability to conduct services that lead allow for profits to their employer. Someone who creates a profit of $6 Billion dollars should demand a greater salary than someone who creates a profit of $50,000.

By the way, there is not a single-person in this league with less money, less assets, less credit, and a less stable housing situation right now than me. Nobody. Whoever is 119th is still laughably better than me.

And I disagree with everything you say, Shift. I was raised by two great people that have the financial knowledge of a frigging shoehorn, sent to schools where I got straight-A's in everything but finance because it wasn't even taught, and have spent 99.9% of my life believing that $1 won is better than $2 earned. If anybody should be a socialist-leaning liberal begging for change, it is me. But I don't. We are the problem, the system is fine. And I am sick of it.

Odds are; I will be a loser my whole life. I promise you this, though, I am going down with a fucking fight. "It is not how hard you can hit, it is how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. How much you can take ... and keep.moving.forward." Sadly, too many people - like, oh, I don't know ... ALL OF US! - just stand in place and wait for a handout of some sort, to some degree, to some extent; no matter how small or large. Yet, we do nothing to earn that handout or to get the opportunity to talk to right people to get that handout. Everyone is "me, me me!" and "now, now, now!" Me? Wall in front? Motherfucker is going down and I don't care how. On the other side of my wall is endless riches, big-tittied bitches, and an Audi. That's what is behind my wall and you could change EVERY.SINGLE.FACET.OF.WALL.STREET and "those" rich people and it still doesn't change that I am the one that has to knock down this fucking wall (that, thanks to my own stupdity, is about 27 feet of concrete and rebar, but that's for another thread).

Your wall might have something different behind it. Perhaps proper care for your family or a home where you don't sweat your balls off to pay for. Maybe it is something even simpler. Or more grandiose. Either way, you still have to do your due diligence. For the filthy rich, their due diligence is picking up a pen. Easy! For us, we have to go all monster truck on shit. I come up with bird-brained ideas on a daily basis that cost me money, time, and my sanity; that's my thing. Yours? Maybe a daily trip to Albany for you. A note. Every day. Whatever.

Either way - if you do it or not - nothing is going to change no matter what laws or regulations you institute.

Shiftdnb wrote:

brwnbear wrote:families who bring in a combined $350K. Those are the families that you think are causing the worlds problems and those are the people you want to pay for your misfortune.

I dont' know where you got that number from but I found this.

http://www.kiplinger.com/tools/income_rank/

type in 350k

Your $350,000 adjusted gross income (AGI) puts you in the top 5% of earners.

EDIT and what the fuck is my misfortune, have you not read my posts about the fact that I am perfectly fine financially

Please read your own articles:

"The latest numbers from the IRS -- based on 2009 tax returns -- show what it takes to be among the top 1% of income earners: adjusted gross income of $343,927 or more. The 1.4 million Americans with this elite status reported 16.9% of all the country’s taxable income."

These are the families you want to raise taxes on, because they dont pay their fair share.

- Sorry, meant to put, "the misfortune of others" - misfortune = bad decisions.

Shiftdnb wrote:Again that's your opinion. I'm not going to argue with you about how amazing of a guy he is. I'm just saying there are a lot of others deserving of his monetary status but settle for what they get to do good in the world.

First of all, that's YOUR opinion.

Second of all....I'm not sure that someone who creates generic drugs, and someone who teaches/nurses, anywhere near the same level.

Anybody with a decent brain can nurse or teach. It takes dedication and hard work, but a lot of people are qualified to do either job.

Show me 100 people who can create pharmaceutical drugs, and then you might have a tiny bit of a leg to stand on.

To be perfectly honest with you Trendon I went to college after the military dreaming of a 60k job right out wanting to buy a lexus is500 and then Sept 11th happened.

One thing that is getting me is that everybody keeps referencing the social welfare in all of this and that the people that take advantage of the system is the reason why we should ask someone else to put more into it. I'm sorry I just don't understand why that keeps coming up. I don't think the poor asked for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and they sure aren't making a profit off of it.

jsence2 wrote:
Show me 100 people who can create pharmaceutical drugs, and then you might have a tiny bit of a leg to stand on.

You know why I always say you need money to get hot girls? People always hate that one. "No you don't! It's what's inside that counts!" I agree.

General Characteristics of Rich People
(Margin of error of whatever magical, anecdotal number you like)

Hard-working, trustworthy, dedicated, intelligent, smart, diligent, steadfast, honest, dynamic, forthright, scrupulous, law-abiding, responsible, and rational.

General Characteristics of Poor People
(Margin of error of whatever magical, anecdotal number you like)

Lazy, untrustworthy, whimsical, flippant, uneducated, stupid, flighty, erratic, liars, static, shady, unscrupulous, crooked, irresponsible, and risky.

Cocksucking assholes that lucked and swindled their way to the top? Sure. Unlucky, decent people who managed to find themselves destitute? Yep. But you'll find more of the top qualities in a rich man than the bottom qualities. And that's called a first impression.

So, my first impression of the poor is they probably deserve to be there and vice-versa. I know why I am poor. Let's see ...

Lazy, untrustworthy, whimsical, flippant, uneducated, stupid, flighty, erratic, liars, static, shady, unscrupulous, crooked, irresponsible, and risky. I possess seven of the fifteen "qualities!"

Yay?

So, my first impression on this? Don't penalize the rich at all.

Shiftdnb wrote:

jsence2 wrote:
Show me 100 people who can create pharmaceutical drugs, and then you might have a tiny bit of a leg to stand on.

First of all, I said PHARMACEUTICAL, not NARCOTICS.

Second of all, Pharmacists don't CREATE drugs, they DISTRIBUTE them.

Not one person you showed me there created a pharmaceutical drug.

You're just grasping at straws at this point, Shift. I'm with Gabe and Dave, your arguments keep changing so damn much that it's impossible to keep track. It's like when something no longer fits your argument, you throw something else at the wall, hoping it will stick.

jsence2 wrote:It's like when something no longer fits your argument, you throw something else at the wall, hoping it will stick.

Wait, he was talking about intelligent design?

Shiftdnb wrote:

brwnbear wrote:

Shiftdnb wrote:Again that's your opinion. I'm not going to argue with you about how amazing of a guy he is. I'm just saying there are a lot of others deserving of his monetary status but settle for what they get to do good in the world.

How many billions of dollars of economic activity does a nurse create?

Why does a person have to create economic activity to be worth something in this world?

because we're debating about finances? because you keep saying shit like 'how do we create revenue and more taxes'? cause we live in a country that has been created and strives on the principles of capitalism.

Is this crap still going?

jsence2 wrote:
First of all, I said PHARMACEUTICAL, not NARCOTICS.

Second of all, Pharmacists don't CREATE drugs, they DISTRIBUTE them.

Not one person you showed me there created a pharmaceutical drug.

You're just grasping at straws at this point, Shift. I'm with Gabe and Dave, your arguments keep changing so damn much that it's impossible to keep track. It's like when something no longer fits your argument, you throw something else at the wall, hoping it will stick.

First of all I was trying to be funny, but that went over your head.

Second...

Pharmaceutical Drug, also referred to as medicine, medication or medicament, can be loosely defined as any chemical substance intended for use in the medical diagnosis, cure, treatment, or prevention of disease

First picture, guy is turning coca plants into cocaine...Don't know if you know your history or not but cocaine was used as a medication for quite some time.

Second picture, Good old Walt and Jesse, they produce high quality meth...Again know your history. In 1943, Abbott Laboratories requested for its approval from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for the treatment of narcolepsy, mild depression, postencephalitic parkinsonism, chronic alcoholism, cerebral arteriosclerosis, and hay fever. Methamphetamine was approved for all of these indications in December, 1944.

Third picture, I actually meant those to be lab people in the pharmaceutical company

Fourth Picture, again meth but this guy is doing it dirty, but it's still meth and it was still used as a medicine.


As far as throwing things up against the wall and making them stick for my arguments I really don't care if you understand me or not. There are multiple issues here. It's easy to argue something from one point of view, not so easy when you're the one trying to point out the grey in life when everyone you're arguing with is so black and white.