NDL Forum

GeorgesGoons wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 5:51 pm

Crowes wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 11:40 am

GeorgesGoons wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 9:27 am

Crowes wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 7:25 am

GeorgesGoons wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 9:54 pm

Nope!

Not all jobs are created equal. Current poverty level for a family of 3 is 22k. If you didn't set yourself up to make $10.50 an hour I don't feel sorry for you. My college son makes more than that in wages alone, not including any tips

I don't think anyone has said all jobs are created equal.

But a whopper flopper needs to be paid enough to afford an average apartment/home? That is what you said, they should all earn a living wage....GTFOH with that bullshit. If you are 30 years old and are still working a HS level job I hope life keeps pissing on you and your dreams.

This is a prime example of why y'all are losing. Heaven forbid someone have different life experiences then ole georgie from Nebraska...

Who's losing? I'm not! And I never said anything about my life experiences from good ole Nebraska. I've lived all over the US and seen the world. I know how well we have it here, I've experienced it first hand. So when someone calls a political leader anything close to a dictator I laugh at their ignorance.

As far as someone working fast food in their 30's as a main job and not in management, why do you think that is? I say it's purely laziness and any lack of wanting to be anything else that that

I don't give a damn what their reasons are nor am I pompous enough assume I know what's going on in their life and what hardships they have faced or what dumb decisions they are trying to overcome or maybe they just like flipping burgers IDC.

It all comes back to the root of if an employer needs labor that labor should be compensated enough to afford the basics IMO. The basics are what we as a society set. So if a worker is content filling that hole in the big machine of our economy who am I to judge.

Are you really so ignorant that you think that their are enough "management positions" out there for every single worker that is 30+?

I mean what if that burger flipper quits and gets a shitty job at a factory or in retail only making $10 and hour is he then worthy of not being shit on?

Crowes wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 7:39 am

ReignOnU wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 11:57 pm

jsence2 wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 2:18 pm
People deserve to make a living wage. You realize that the same McDonald's in Europe pays their employees a significant amount more, plus they get full health insurance? Why do you think that someone working a job that is "entry level" should be forced to live in poverty? Do you realize how messed up of a mindset that it, how warped our brains have become from capitalism?

I want you to think about what you just wrote. Like, really think about it. You just said that it is silly to think someone working 40 hours a week at McDonald's shouldn't be able to make enough to live in an average apartment. Which means unless they work a second job or have serious help or a roommate...they're what, homeless? Living in a shack or a roach motel? Why, because they work at a lowly restaurant job?

I mean...I'm not saying that they should make $20 an hour, but try to live on their salary for a week and you'll quickly change your mind.

And btw, EVERYONE'S salaries should be going up. They should be making $15 an hour, and you, me, everyone in here who works for a business should be making more money. Our salaries over the past thirty years have barely gone up when you account for inflation, yet the cost of everything else has, and the salaries for CEOs, fat-cats, etc have gone up astronomically.

Until the working class stops fighting other working class people about why they shouldn't get paid more, and realize that we're all being pitted against each other by those in power so they can stay in power, not a damn thing will change in this country.

Average apartment is a pretty relative standard based on region. Where we live, $550 a month gets you an average single bedroom. Which, to be fair, we're talking the lowest of low level jobs here and justifying that it should somehow get you "average" apartment standards. But we'll go on...

The bottom quartile of full-time McDonald's employees make about $20,000. That's give/take $10. McDonald's offers benefits after 90 days. Due to federal changes about 4-5 years ago, all employees under $48k annually quality for OT at McDonald's. At $20k per year, you're going to run around 20%-25% for taxes & benefits, not including 401K contributions. We'll go high-end and says it's a net take home $15k annually or $1,250 per month. Rent, is $550. That leaves $700 to live on per month.
Core Utilities: $150
Phone: $50
Internet: $50
Food: $300 (keep in mind, I believe FT McDonald's employees get unlimited meals, so could be much less)
Left Over: $150 - This will cover public transportation and "extras."

That's a fully functional life for a single person, with the shit level job, and going 'worst case' scenario on most stuff.

Maybe we need to worry less about how much these people are making and worry more about teaching them about finance and how to improve their lives. You want car and insurance? Improve yourself. Netflix and Youtube TV? Work hard and move up. McDonald's Asst Manager's make ~$38k per year.

So tired of hearing this stupid argument about "living wages," from people that are absolutely clueless.

Maybe we need to worry less about handing out money and worry more about teaching people how to manage it and improve their lives.

What a hot steaming pile of garbage you just spewed

If only reality fit into reigns pretty box of logic there'd be no need for anything.

Where is the issue? Most of that should be pretty easily validated. I know math isn't a strength of the of the left, but this is fairly basic stuff.

When I was a kid, you worked entry level jobs, knowing it was entry level, to put some cash in your pocket.
I cut grass for a living, I dug ditches doing sewer and water lines with my dad, etc. to put cash in my pocket. These were basic, entry level laborer jobs.

Then, when I moved out on my own and needed to pay for all the things Reign listed, I knew I had to take it serious and get a real job.
Flipping burgers was never an option if I knew I wanted to be out on my own.
Not sure why that is so hard to understand. That is an entry level job. Not all jobs can pay a "living wage".

So I went to Best Buy, got a full time job, making about $12 per hour (Back in 1996) and worked my way into management where I made roughly $45,000 per year (Back in 1998).
Moved to Columbus, about 2 hours away to take that job.
So I am not sure why you feel that everyone should get paid a "living wage" no matter what they do for a living.

Almost every career path has an entry level position.
At Best Buy, you start off as part time, making minimum wage or just above that. These are typically college kids or high school kids looking to put some money in their pocket.
If you are at a Waste Management company, you are a general laborer or a sorter. Then you work your way into driving a truck or a tow motor or working the scales, etc.
If you are in the restaurant business, you are a host/hostess or a dishwasher.
If you like to work with animals, you can work at a zoo and clean up elephant shit or work with a vet as an assistant.
But those are all entry level positions.
You have to work your way up, which usually requires experience and skill to get the higher up positions, therefor, they make more $'s.

So I am not sure why you struggle to understand that everyone should not make a "living wage" based on the job that they do. The reality is that just about every career path has entry level jobs along the way and not all of those are going to pay a "living wage", nor should they.

No one and nothing owes you anything in this world.
If you want a "living wage", you work your way up to it in your job.
I don't care if that is a garbage man, an office job, a restaurant job, etc.

In my opinion, it is the mentality that every job should pay a living wage that is wrong with this country, not the other way around saying that George or Reign's logic is flawed.

You start at the bottom and you work your ass off till you get to where you want to be....Period!

Crowes wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 7:53 pm
I don't give a damn what their reasons are nor am I pompous enough assume I know what's going on in their life and what hardships they have faced or what dumb decisions they are trying to overcome or maybe they just like flipping burgers IDC.

It all comes back to the root of if an employer needs labor that labor should be compensated enough to afford the basics IMO. The basics are what we as a society set. So if a worker is content filling that hole in the big machine of our economy who am I to judge.

Are you really so ignorant that you think that their are enough "management positions" out there for every single worker that is 30+?

I mean what if that burger flipper quits and gets a shitty job at a factory or in retail only making $10 and hour is he then worthy of not being shit on?

I don't give a damn what their reasons are either.
You start at the bottom and work your way up.

If a burger flipper quits and gets a shitty job at a factory or in retail only making $10 per hour, then that is what they deserve.
Sorry, not being a dick here, but you have to start at the bottom if you do not have experience in that field.
So yes, you would get shit on as far as pay.

You start off at the bottom and work your way up.

Now, if that burger flipper used to work doing the job in the factory and then had struggles, ended up homeless, is now starting over, flipped burgers to have a job, now quits to go work at a factory again and has experience, they will probably make $15-$20 per hour instead of $10 getting shit on.
Experience helps tremendously with most employers or careers.

I am not sure why you feel that people who have no experience deserve something.
I know, if I started off tomorrow, I quit my current IT job and I went to work for a law firm, guess what, if I don't have the schooling to be a lawyer and no experience, I am probably starting off making minimum wage in the mail room sorting mail for them.
But I would expect that because I don't have the schooling or the experience.

Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

JD, I'd add on that bottom part, especially in this scenario, that it's not just "no experience." If you're mid-30s, that's over 10 years to have had a chance to make yourself better. If you've been burger flippin' for over 10 years and haven't moved up, that's on you too. Improve yourself!

I love the idea that anything is owed to someone. You get what you deserve from the work you put in. That goes for everything, not just a job.

Can't have it both ways. We either have a minimum wage that covers the basics for a worker or we have a bloated welfare system.

It's obvious with all the what if hypotheticals and the just pull yourself up by the bootstraps BS mentality the blight of the working poor hasnt been seen or experienced by few around here. If baffles me how people can be so unaware of life experiences other then their own then just shut down and shit on everything as not even in the realm of possibility.

Crowes wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 1:23 pm It's obvious with all the what if hypotheticals and the just pull yourself up by the bootstraps BS mentality the blight of the working poor hasnt been seen or experienced by few around here. If baffles me how people can be so unaware of life experiences other then their own then just shut down and shit on everything as not even in the realm of possibility.

Before you try and lump people in some kind of narrative you have concocted in your head you should know your whole audience.

100% lived it as a child. No electricity/water, welfare, food stamps, group homes, foster homes, Boys Town. I saw that as a child and knew being educated was my way out. I knew college was not an option for me as we had no money so i decided to get a great job in the Army and expanded my life opportunities because of the job(s) I chose.

My brother and sister didn't see it the same as I did growing up. Brother went to prison at 18 for 10 years and has turned his life around and makes $60k a year working his ass off (as a HS dropout before his Junior year). Sister, not so much and is one of the reasons I don't talk with her.

GeorgesGoons wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 2:03 pm

Crowes wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 1:23 pm It's obvious with all the what if hypotheticals and the just pull yourself up by the bootstraps BS mentality the blight of the working poor hasnt been seen or experienced by few around here. If baffles me how people can be so unaware of life experiences other then their own then just shut down and shit on everything as not even in the realm of possibility.

Before you try and lump people in some kind of narrative you have concocted in your head you should know your whole audience.

100% lived it as a child. No electricity/water, welfare, food stamps, group homes, foster homes, Boys Town. I saw that as a child and knew being educated was my way out. I knew college was not an option for me as we had no money so i decided to get a great job in the Army and expanded my life opportunities because of the job(s) I chose.

My brother and sister didn't see it the same as I did growing up. Brother went to prison at 18 for 10 years and has turned his life around and makes $60k a year working his ass off (as a HS dropout before his Junior year). Sister, not so much and is one of the reasons I don't talk with her.

You think that makes you seem like more or less of a narcissist? You know the struggles but still don't give a fuck

Crowes wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 3:55 pm

GeorgesGoons wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 2:03 pm

Crowes wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 1:23 pm It's obvious with all the what if hypotheticals and the just pull yourself up by the bootstraps BS mentality the blight of the working poor hasnt been seen or experienced by few around here. If baffles me how people can be so unaware of life experiences other then their own then just shut down and shit on everything as not even in the realm of possibility.

Before you try and lump people in some kind of narrative you have concocted in your head you should know your whole audience.

100% lived it as a child. No electricity/water, welfare, food stamps, group homes, foster homes, Boys Town. I saw that as a child and knew being educated was my way out. I knew college was not an option for me as we had no money so i decided to get a great job in the Army and expanded my life opportunities because of the job(s) I chose.

My brother and sister didn't see it the same as I did growing up. Brother went to prison at 18 for 10 years and has turned his life around and makes $60k a year working his ass off (as a HS dropout before his Junior year). Sister, not so much and is one of the reasons I don't talk with her.

You think that makes you seem like more or less of a narcissist? You know the struggles but still don't give a fuck

A slight education might do you some good. I know what it's like to struggle and know what it takes to overcome those situations. So if there is an adult in their 30's still working a high school level job then I have zero sympathy. There are a million ways out if that person has any drive to succeed. If they don't have any drive then so be it, but you won't get any sympathy from me.

Your kind of thinking will eventually be the downfall of the Democratic party. They rely too much on keeping people in poverty and beholden of the welfare state. May not be in our lifetime bit certainly in our kids/grandkids lifetime if the trend continues

But I am happy to have our ANTIFA member back to the boards.

GeorgesGoons wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 2:03 pm

Crowes wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 1:23 pm It's obvious with all the what if hypotheticals and the just pull yourself up by the bootstraps BS mentality the blight of the working poor hasnt been seen or experienced by few around here. If baffles me how people can be so unaware of life experiences other then their own then just shut down and shit on everything as not even in the realm of possibility.

Before you try and lump people in some kind of narrative you have concocted in your head you should know your whole audience.

100% lived it as a child. No electricity/water, welfare, food stamps, group homes, foster homes, Boys Town. I saw that as a child and knew being educated was my way out. I knew college was not an option for me as we had no money so i decided to get a great job in the Army and expanded my life opportunities because of the job(s) I chose.

My brother and sister didn't see it the same as I did growing up. Brother went to prison at 18 for 10 years and has turned his life around and makes $60k a year working his ass off (as a HS dropout before his Junior year). Sister, not so much and is one of the reasons I don't talk with her.

Bingo. Mom worked 2 retail/restaurant jobs at all times to try to keep the lights/water on while dad drank and pissed away everything. Rocked Family Dollar Hoops and Xavier McDaniel shoes until HS and Back-to-School shopping consisted of a Kmart lay-a-way of 3-4 outfits that I may or may not have had before school started. I could go on and on.

Instead of bitching about it life, I walked or rode my back to the local farms and asked if I could work for them from age 12-15. Paper route, under the table restaurant job, local market, mowing lawns, dug up a pool, shoveled shit, sorted copper wire out truckloads of shredded metal/car parts, whatever... If I wanted shit, I found a way to get it and pay for it. Sometimes that meant making that last layaway payment myself or saving my money so I could get my first pair of Nike's in 9th grade, for basketball, because they were the "team shoe."

After school, same deal... no football scholarship, planned to go Nuclear Field in the Navy, but too tall for the subs, so I started out at 6.50 an hour in retail. Busted my ass, moved through management... kept going until I was over 23k employees and a $2.5b business... Then I got my degree.

2 simple lines...
"Excuses are a sign of poor performance"

...and one from someone that I love to make fun of, but he's not wrong...
"Nobody cares, work harder"

He was so sure that none of us seen or experienced the hardships of the working poor.

GeorgesGoons wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 4:11 pm

Crowes wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 3:55 pm

GeorgesGoons wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 2:03 pm

Crowes wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 1:23 pm It's obvious with all the what if hypotheticals and the just pull yourself up by the bootstraps BS mentality the blight of the working poor hasnt been seen or experienced by few around here. If baffles me how people can be so unaware of life experiences other then their own then just shut down and shit on everything as not even in the realm of possibility.

Before you try and lump people in some kind of narrative you have concocted in your head you should know your whole audience.

100% lived it as a child. No electricity/water, welfare, food stamps, group homes, foster homes, Boys Town. I saw that as a child and knew being educated was my way out. I knew college was not an option for me as we had no money so i decided to get a great job in the Army and expanded my life opportunities because of the job(s) I chose.

My brother and sister didn't see it the same as I did growing up. Brother went to prison at 18 for 10 years and has turned his life around and makes $60k a year working his ass off (as a HS dropout before his Junior year). Sister, not so much and is one of the reasons I don't talk with her.

You think that makes you seem like more or less of a narcissist? You know the struggles but still don't give a fuck

A slight education might do you some good. I know what it's like to struggle and know what it takes to overcome those situations. So if there is an adult in their 30's still working a high school level job then I have zero sympathy. There are a million ways out if that person has any drive to succeed. If they don't have any drive then so be it, but you won't get any sympathy from me.

Your kind of thinking will eventually be the downfall of the Democratic party. They rely too much on keeping people in poverty and beholden of the welfare state. May not be in our lifetime bit certainly in our kids/grandkids lifetime if the trend continues

I do believe paying people more would require less people to be on welfare but hell what do I know

Crowes wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 4:46 pm

GeorgesGoons wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 4:11 pm

Crowes wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 3:55 pm

GeorgesGoons wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 2:03 pm

Crowes wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 1:23 pm It's obvious with all the what if hypotheticals and the just pull yourself up by the bootstraps BS mentality the blight of the working poor hasnt been seen or experienced by few around here. If baffles me how people can be so unaware of life experiences other then their own then just shut down and shit on everything as not even in the realm of possibility.

Before you try and lump people in some kind of narrative you have concocted in your head you should know your whole audience.

100% lived it as a child. No electricity/water, welfare, food stamps, group homes, foster homes, Boys Town. I saw that as a child and knew being educated was my way out. I knew college was not an option for me as we had no money so i decided to get a great job in the Army and expanded my life opportunities because of the job(s) I chose.

My brother and sister didn't see it the same as I did growing up. Brother went to prison at 18 for 10 years and has turned his life around and makes $60k a year working his ass off (as a HS dropout before his Junior year). Sister, not so much and is one of the reasons I don't talk with her.

You think that makes you seem like more or less of a narcissist? You know the struggles but still don't give a fuck

A slight education might do you some good. I know what it's like to struggle and know what it takes to overcome those situations. So if there is an adult in their 30's still working a high school level job then I have zero sympathy. There are a million ways out if that person has any drive to succeed. If they don't have any drive then so be it, but you won't get any sympathy from me.

Your kind of thinking will eventually be the downfall of the Democratic party. They rely too much on keeping people in poverty and beholden of the welfare state. May not be in our lifetime bit certainly in our kids/grandkids lifetime if the trend continues

I do believe paying people more would require less people to be on welfare but hell what do I know

You don't think raising wages affects cost of goods or jobs? Hell, damn near every McDonald's has touch screens for you to order your food from which eliminates jobs for those that have no skills. Have you been in a grocery store lately? All the extra self checkouts and less cashiers. What do you think happens when wages increase? These companies aren't going to just eat the costs, they either eliminate jobs or increase price of goods.

A national mandate of $15 / hour doesn't work everywhere. It should be based on cost of living where you are located at. And I'd still argue that an entry level job (fast food etc) shouldn't be getting 30K a year in 80+% of the country as the cost of living doesn't support that.

GeorgesGoons wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 5:01 pm

Crowes wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 4:46 pm

GeorgesGoons wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 4:11 pm

Crowes wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 3:55 pm

GeorgesGoons wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 2:03 pm

Before you try and lump people in some kind of narrative you have concocted in your head you should know your whole audience.

100% lived it as a child. No electricity/water, welfare, food stamps, group homes, foster homes, Boys Town. I saw that as a child and knew being educated was my way out. I knew college was not an option for me as we had no money so i decided to get a great job in the Army and expanded my life opportunities because of the job(s) I chose.

My brother and sister didn't see it the same as I did growing up. Brother went to prison at 18 for 10 years and has turned his life around and makes $60k a year working his ass off (as a HS dropout before his Junior year). Sister, not so much and is one of the reasons I don't talk with her.

You think that makes you seem like more or less of a narcissist? You know the struggles but still don't give a fuck

A slight education might do you some good. I know what it's like to struggle and know what it takes to overcome those situations. So if there is an adult in their 30's still working a high school level job then I have zero sympathy. There are a million ways out if that person has any drive to succeed. If they don't have any drive then so be it, but you won't get any sympathy from me.

Your kind of thinking will eventually be the downfall of the Democratic party. They rely too much on keeping people in poverty and beholden of the welfare state. May not be in our lifetime bit certainly in our kids/grandkids lifetime if the trend continues

I do believe paying people more would require less people to be on welfare but hell what do I know

You don't think raising wages affects cost of goods or jobs? Hell, damn near every McDonald's has touch screens for you to order your food from which eliminates jobs for those that have no skills. Have you been in a grocery store lately? All the extra self checkouts and less cashiers. What do you think happens when wages increase? These companies aren't going to just eat the costs, they either eliminate jobs or increase price of goods.

A national mandate of $15 / hour doesn't work everywhere. It should be based on cost of living where you are located at. And I'd still argue that an entry level job (fast food etc) shouldn't be getting 30K a year in 80+% of the country as the cost of living doesn't support that.

There's data out there already like that of of states and cities that have a higher minimum wage vs states and cities that don't. Theres little to no difference in cost of goods or services.


Mass unemployment due to automation is a for sure thing it's already written in stone a $15 minimum wage has little to do with that.

Crowes wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 1:23 pmIt's obvious with all the what if hypotheticals and the just pull yourself up by the bootstraps BS mentality the blight of the working poor hasnt been seen or experienced by few around here. If baffles me how people can be so unaware of life experiences other then their own then just shut down and shit on everything as not even in the realm of possibility.

Why are you ignoring replies to say nonsense like this?

You already me if it were me making minimum wage, and I already told you I did make minimum wage, so...

Crowes wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 5:23 pm Mass unemployment due to automation is a for sure thing it's already written in stone a $15 minimum wage has little to do with that.

You don't think nearly doubling the minimum wage will have any effect whatsoever on whether those fast food restaurants will add more automated kiosks and less employees?

shel311 wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 5:32 pm

Crowes wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 5:23 pm Mass unemployment due to automation is a for sure thing it's already written in stone a $15 minimum wage has little to do with that.

You don't think nearly doubling the minimum wage will have any effect whatsoever on whether those fast food restaurants will add more automated kiosks and less employees?

Universal basic income! Sooner we get it figured out the better.

There are cities that have a minimum wage that high and there's no difference in adding automation as oppossed to a city with a low minimum wage so unless they lied I dunno...

The future is humans owning robots to work for us. And selling nba top shots to stupid people