2078 Season Thread... 2 Rings for the Wings

[Roggie]

Really don't understand how Shel doesn't get that only a commish can edit ratings. Cheating as a commish has literally zero correlation to how good of a member someone can be as a regular member when cheating is impossible.

Not taking sides on anything here. Just utterly baffled by why he keeps going back to that when there's literally zero relevance to anything with it.

If Corey was made commish? 100%, Shel is spot-on for everything. As a regular member, it means nothing.

[Neurotic]

Here’s the thing about what you’re doing.

You’ve created a narrative during your time here and you continually live in that narrative and keep adding layers to it over time and are now emotionally entrenched in your fairy tale you created... which believe or not I think is fine, everyone is entitled to think whatever the fuck they want.

But, with that said:

a) you don’t actually know what you’re saying is FACTUAL and you weren’t even here. To be willing to go so hard on a topic you weren’t actually here for is a bit puzzling at best and borderline narcissistic at worst. There was literally YEARS of game play and decisions that were made to create his super teams

b) others of us were here so your suggestions are offensive to those of us who were participating as if we openly allowed someone to cheat and we were too dumb to see it.

C) the dudes he got in trades were always the top of the top prospects. If you want to argue he gave himself a head start by having cheated at the beginning to get the original studs to trade them off for other stud prospects, then maybe that’s fair (I’m not going there but that’s one possible thing I can’t guarantee didn’t happen). But I literally watched him trade for the top prospects over and over and over and over by dumping his studs off to those owners. The dudes were always insane and back then if you had a projected top prospect they basically always became stars. There was far less variance in the scouting as there is today

D) I don’t even get along w Corey.

E) AJ won 3 titles in a row, did I mention how unrealistic that is.

F) I know you keep downplaying his willingness to break up his team, but he did do that without anyone making him or wanting him to. I actually was very much against it. He was making smart moves over and over and deserved the squads he had at the time of the breakup.

Again, I can’t guarantee he never fucked with his original team to get the head start... I don’t think he did, but I can’t guarantee it... but I can guarantee he made very smart trades from a financial and roster building perspective that continually helped him win during that run.

Winning 3 titles in a row isn't something that is "omg that guy is obviously cheating" worthy. Its his .700+ winning percentage over a 10 year period where he never won less than 120 games. Trading for top prospects doesn't remove the accusation. To that end, it would make more sense to inflate guys who are already top prospects. It is less obvious than taking 20th round picks and bumping them up. It is also their development AFTER the were acquired that makes it suspicious. That is the accusation, not just because his team was so good. We had a guy do something very similar in regards to selling players for prospects and continually pushing back his timeline and selling players. He went on to win 4 titles in 6 years and averaged around 97 wins over 8 years. The difference here is his prospects didn't all blow up after acquiring them. Again, its not the players he acquired, its the development timeline and sheer number of "blowups" that accompanied it.

You like, get how the game works right? This isn't something a non-commish could do. Like you get that, right? It's not like I can just start hackin' up the NDL and Dugout file so my teams there are amazing?

So for that reason, you just allow a cheater that you also think is huge piece of garbage into your league?

Again, you're trying to rationalize something that is 100% not rational.

To that end I let you in and have strong disdain for you as well. Things grow over time. I definitely have a larger dislike for Corey now than I did when he first joined the Dugout. I'm not really sure what point you're trying to drive home here. At this point it seems you're more less just trying to derail the conversation by pointing out that he was at point allowed in the Dugout. I've always been of mind that its better to have a person than a CPU GM. Again, not really sure what point you're trying to make here? You think it is hypocritical for me to allow someone I don't like into my league? Ok, then sure lol.

[Graywolf357]

Half of us don’t care what happen in that time period because we were not there for it. My dealings with Cory from the start have been Fair. When I was new he could had trade raped me many times and he didn’t. This was my first online league. Ted did, Webby did. Still like Ted,Webby I did learn from it. Well maybe. Team Cory it’s over move on.

[redwings8831]

It's honestly just a lot of fake outrage. Neurotic is acting like it's sooooo egregious but yet he's still in this league, seems obviously he's given this league a recommendation to all the other Dugout dudes in the league, AND he let Corey(and supposedly even invited) Corey into his league.

I joined this league after Billy posted a message saying there was an open team in the league he runs and then talking with only him. At least at that time, Neurotic wasn’t recruiting anyone to here.

[jeheinz72]

but given the veracity of people rejecting the notion that anything even happened, I'm betting against that.

Expand on this thought please?

Are you implying that people having differing views from you somehow strengthens your case?

I’m honestly confused what that means so don’t want to jump before I hear the intent of that comment

The whole sentence was "Maybe that admission happened pre-Heinz and I'm just off on that, but given the veracity of people rejecting the notion that anything even happened, I'm betting against that."

So what I'm saying here, and I'm realizing now that veracity was a poor word choice (I should've said ferocity), is that I don't think the cheating has been pre-admitted to given the blanket defense of something that I personally see plain as day.

The confusion probably happened from my getting my word wrong - veracity/ferocity

[jeheinz72]

Ok, so stipulating Mike made a bad call letting him in the Dugout. Fine, call that true.

My entire premise of making that point was about the "crony" line.

Again, just being honest, if you try to defend that for a few posts like you did instead of saying exactly what you just said there...all I'm saying is I"d hope you can at least understand the logic behind being called a crony, no?

And same with you posting as facts all these things that happened when you weren't even here, and honestly I don't even think Neurotic was in the league then? So I assume Neurotic told you all these things that happened that he may not have been here for, and you're posting them as facts, not distorted or exaggerated at all because Neurotic told you. Put those 2 things together and my only point with all of that is...all I'm saying is I"d hope you can at least understand the logic behind being called a crony, no?

Like I said from the jump - I dismissed Mike mentioning it for months, until I actually did some digging the other day. Well maybe not the jump-jump, but like pages ago (yay pages!)

If you want to think I'm a crony, I honestly don't care. But your desire to dismiss what I'm saying because I'm a crony yet completely turn a blind eye to pretty clear hinkiness over a 20-season span is baffling. You do you

OMG - Two people who know each other from somewhere else AGREE! They must both be wrong because of it! They're IN ON IT!

Ok, so stipulate I'm a crony even. I'm not even typing these words right now. Mike is. I let him into my account so he can post as me to further "strengthen" his case. That doesn't make is less of a cheat.

[jeheinz72]

but given the veracity of people rejecting the notion that anything even happened, I'm betting against that.

Wait wait wait...you're going to have to explain this one to me.

2 people have posted the most and been the most outspoken since yesterday in that regard, Dave and myself. Dave said it's possible, I don't think I've made a single comment on whether he did or didn't since yesterday.


Are you honestly trying to tell me both of spoke with more veracity than Neurotic did?


If "veracity" is your barometer and the more veracity someone has, then you'd bet against that, then can you explain to me why you're believing Neurotic, who only had about 1 million times more veracity than both Dave and I?

Please, please explain that one..

Again, like the other guy - you cut off the quote with the subject of the sentence, which was that the cheating has already been admitting to. So I'm betting against some sort of admission of guilt happening before I got here.

[Roggie]

Also, when I joined this, Mike asked me to join. But another guy in the dugout was trying to join and Mike told Billy no to him because he was a very mediocre owner who missed exports often.

Mike and I fight plenty too. I'm not someone who backs people, no matter who they are, when I think they're wrong. Shel knows this too because there's no possible way he never saw Mike and I go at it in Slack. Billy can back that as well, although he's being smart and staying well out of this.

Corey's players all showing growth after trading for them is fishy as hell. Do trades happen then a guy blows up? Yep. Does it happen often? Nope. Is it stastically improbable that what happened for Boston back then to have happened with no outside influence? Absofuckinglutely.

Am I saying he cheated? No. Am I saying the evidence is incredibly suspicious and odds are he did? Yes.

Have I seen cheated players before in a league? Yes. We even sent a file to Markus over a player with obscene growth and personality changes. That league instantly retired said player. But it was only caught due to personality changes and a ton of background research, checking old files to compare stuff, as those never change without the game glitching, while ratings do change and are impossible to tell if manually altered or typical game changes.

But again, the changes to guys he traded for, with so many having growth after without showing it beforehand, is stastically improbable. That's all I'm saying, and that's from someone who has beta tested this game for years, which has taught me a LOT about the under the cover parts of the engine and other workings of how player ratings work. It's not normal whatsoever for what those players did to have happen all at one time with the same team. That doesn't even happen league wide with that many players in that time period, let alone for one franchise.

[shel311]

The confusion probably happened from my getting my word wrong - veracity/ferocity

Still, Neurotic pretty obviously was wayyyyyy more ferocious in his posts, so why are you not "betting against him?"

[jeheinz72]

Look, bottom line, it's fine guys. Many people here clearly don't see an issue with that era of the league. Ok then.

I guess I just see it as so egregious and appalling that I don't understand how people can not, but I wasn't around so it wasn't my situation. I get that.

So I'll plan on dropping it, for the most part aside from some needling from time to time when the topic presents itself.

Though I think honestly this conversation has illuminated likely a larger issue. One being that Mike/Roggie/me/RW are evidently perpetually lesser-than because we all were previously in another league together, that other GMs here didn't enjoy.

[jeheinz72]

The confusion probably happened from my getting my word wrong - veracity/ferocity

Still, Neurotic pretty obviously was wayyyyyy more ferocious in his posts, so why are you not "betting against him?"

I don't think you quite get what I was saying in that sentence still, but it's fine

[DRiccio21]

Again, like the other guy - you cut off the quote with the subject of the sentence, which was that the cheating has already been admitting to. So I'm betting against some sort of admission of guilt happening before I got here.

I am a half ass owner these days so I apologize, or I find your thoughts tough to comprehend (I drank last night so I apologize), but Corey admitted to cheating? I wasn’t aware of that if that’s what you mean

[shel311]

Though I think honestly this conversation has illuminated likely a larger issue. One being that Mike/Roggie/me/RW are evidently perpetually lesser-than because we all were previously in another league together,

Are you pretending that you dudes aren't acting like we're all lesser than because you're all smart enough to know what happened even when you weren't in the league, and all of us just weren't smart enough to see it , is that what we're doing now?

a little self awareness would help here, come on man.

[Neurotic]

Being in the league at the time is irrelevant. The player history is still there in the player files.

[DRiccio21]

Though I think honestly this conversation has illuminated likely a larger issue. One being that Mike/Roggie/me/RW are evidently perpetually lesser-than because we all were previously in another league together, that other GMs here didn't enjoy.

I can only speak for myself but I have no issues with any of you guys and I actually think you’re all far better owners than what you replaced. We don’t all need to love each other but we also don’t need to be disrespectful either.

[Roggie]

Though I think honestly this conversation has illuminated likely a larger issue. One being that Mike/Roggie/me/RW are evidently perpetually lesser-than because we all were previously in another league together,

Are you pretending that you dudes aren't acting like we're all lesser than because you're all smart enough to know what happened even when you weren't in the league, and all of us just weren't smart enough to see it , is that what we're doing now?

a little self awareness would help here, come on man.

Honestly, you've given a "everyone not in the old guard is lesser" vibe since I've joined. Any time Mike brought up anything, you've been against it. Just have to go view old winter meeting threads to see that. It's been painfully obvious, so I find it hilarious that you made this comment.

You can ask billy. I know a LOT about the game. He comes to me with questions when he isn't sure on stuff.

But nowhere have I seen Mike or myself dismiss things said with any sort of "you aren't us so your opinion doesn't matter" vibes. It's just funny that any time there's a discussion or argument involving Mike, you're always there to go against him or his ideas.

Not trying to add fuel to this fight. Just saying how I've felt on this topic since joining.

[GeorgesGoons]

Essentially what this comes down to is neurotic and jheinz feel like they have cornered the market on logic and investigative work and the rest of us were just complete blind idiots when Corey was having his run.

I try to stay out of these arguments but I can attest to several other owners that were present during those years, as well as decades before and after, have said the same thing in PM's. It's not just two new guys stating this.

So here is my opinion on why it was never brought up before. The NDL, the original members that are still around from the football days, still want something to come to. If this was brought up then, or shortly after the league would have folded. If the league folded, the forums would have folded because of it. And that wasn't something a lot of "old timers" wanted to chance. But I think the league is in a much better place now than it was 30 seasons ago, which allows for this kind of discussion without the league blowing up.

[GeorgesGoons]

Though I think honestly this conversation has illuminated likely a larger issue. One being that Mike/Roggie/me/RW are evidently perpetually lesser-than because we all were previously in another league together,

Are you pretending that you dudes aren't acting like we're all lesser than because you're all smart enough to know what happened even when you weren't in the league, and all of us just weren't smart enough to see it , is that what we're doing now?

a little self awareness would help here, come on man.

My other posts explains this part. There were plenty of people that thought it, but it wasn't worth blowing up the NDL for it at the time.

[DRiccio21]

A lot of people in life like to make excuses when others win and they lose.

Truth is we had a lot of atrocious owners in this league over the years that helped the more active owners by being pawns during trade time

I believe in accountability, if you show me a factual thing that proves Corey or anyone cheated then I’m all for roasting them but it sounds like a lot of bitching to me

[shel311]

Honestly, you've given a "everyone not in the old guard is lesser" vibe since I've joined. Any time Mike brought up anything, you've been against it.

So help me understand here...There's a topic, I'm on one side and Neurotic's take is on the opposite side. So that then means that I think Neurotic is lesser, but Neurotic having the opposite opinion as me, does that mean he thinks he is better than me? Or nah, it only works one way against me "just cause?"

Which is it?

But nowhere have I seen Mike or myself dismiss things said with any sort of "you aren't us so your opinion doesn't matter" vibes.

Neurotic has literally done that for the last 24 hours, you're honestly saying he hasn't done exactly that? Neurotic again is literally saying something as fact that is actually an opinion, and anyone that disagrees with him and reminds him those are just opinions and no one actually knows what happens(which is factually correct) he hasn't exactly had a very "agree to disagree" vibe to those who dont' share his opinion, you would agree with that, right?