***Official World Cup Talk Thread***
- LetsGoPeay
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Re: ***Official World Cup Talk Thread***
Excellent points and a great post brwnbear. I wholeheartedly agree.

Re: ***Official World Cup Talk Thread***
brwnbear wrote:Jsence...
It is painfully obvious we are never going to come to a concensus. You are in the belief that breaking some rules are cheating while breaking others are not. Your whole system is based on an objective view based on the rule that was broken vs. the intent in breaking the rule. I would assume that you would think that holding in football is cheating. That when the catcher moves the glove back into the strick zone it is cheating. That cross checking is cheating. That fouling someone who is about to dunk on you is cheating. That getting a goal while offsides is cheating.
I dong think any of those are cheating because you dont try to deceive the spirit of the game and gain an advantage. Corked bats and steriod are cheating because you try to deceive the spirit of the game by doing something that is not easibly verified. Henry's handball was cheating because he tried to deceive the ref in an attempt to gain an advantage. I dont believe that Suarez tried to deceive anyone. I believe he committed a foul and was punished for that foul. Had Ghana made the PK, no one would be talking about this and everyone would be saying how justiced was served. But since they missed and lost in overtime, now it is cheating. Those articles that you posted, dont say anything that changes my mind about what happend.
Now if you want to change the rules to give a two game suspension for a straight red, I am fine with that. What I dont want is someone changing the rules of the game half way through. That would be the worse thing you could do.
BTW - This is why so many people dissagree with you about Calipari. First, using a player that is not eligible in a game is cheating. Its in the bylaws and USC just got hammered for it. Calipari used ineligible players at UMass, and at Memphis. You claim..
"I also don't think he INTENTIONALLY cheated" and "he was a hero who cheated."
Calipari, whether intentional or not, cheated by using an ineligible player. By your definition, he is a cheater. You cant have it both ways.
As I said, because we have different belief systems on what constitudes cheating, we are never going to agree so we might as well stop talking about it. To me Suarez didnt cheat while Calipari did. To you Suarez is a cheater and Calipari is not.
He swung his arms to deny what was a sure goal. Had Ghana made the PK or not, he would have cheated just the same.
What MY issue is, is that he still gets to play in this World Cup. I'm not advocating that a straight red card means a two-match ban, and I'm not asking for a rule change in the middle of it. The governing body of a soccer tournament or league--whether it's FIFA, the FA, UEFA, whoever--reviews many red cards to decide if they should be:
1) rescinded
2) adjusted to a harsher punishment
For example, go back to the Manchester City-Arsenal clash earlier this year, where Adebayor raked his studs on the face of Robin Van Persie. He was sent off and given a red. However, after reviewing the play, the FA added an additional two matches to the ban, and many felt that this was too LITTLE of a punishment. This is what FIFA should have done in this instance--I felt watching it that Suarez just reacted. However, the things he has said since show that he not only knew what he was doing, he finds it humorous.
The reason I find some things to be cheating and some things not to be, such as holding, is because they're accepted by those who play the game as "common" and, quite often, could be penalized on every play. I think where the difference comes in is where it's something that has a DRASTIC impact on the game. Goals are at a premium when it comes to World Cup, or soccer in general; something that intentionally keeps a team from scoring is more agregious than, say, another red card offense such as a headbutt like Zidane's. Zidane's headbutt, while stupid, really did nothing to affect the outcome of the match. It did not prevent a team from scoring, it did not change the scoreline. Suarez, on the other hand, directly impacted the match. The fact that Ghana didn't score is irrelevant when it comes to his GLOATING that he won the match for his team. For that, he is going against the very WORDING of FIFA's Fair Play guideline: "Winning is without value if victory has been achieved unfairly or dishonestly. Cheating is easy, but brings no pleasure."
Take away your personal thoughts on the matter, and look at it objectively--did Suarez's handball, and his GLOATING of what he did afterwards, go directly against FIFA's Fair Play regulation? If so, then by FIFA doing nothing more than they would do for someone getting two yellows by say, a clumsy tackle and then kicking the ball away in anger (an automatic yellow), aren't they essentially disregarding their own guidelines on the biggest stage they have?!
Had this happened against the United States, I'm willing to bet many of the same people saying he didn't cheat would not be singing the same tune. Not saying you would, but I'm saying many would. Same thing if this had happened to England, or France, or Spain--there would be even more outrage. That is one of the great things about things like this, it leads to meaningful debate, HOPEFULLY. With Sepp Blatter in charge, who knows.
(Btw comparing this to Calipari isn't even close to logical. Calipari used those players in good faith, especially Rose--it's the NCAA Clearinghouse's job to make sure he's eligible, and they said he was. Calipari didn't do something knowing it was against the rules. Suarez did. So did his teammate, Fucile, who swung at the ball with HIS hands as well.)

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Re: ***Official World Cup Talk Thread***
LetsGoPeay wrote:In addition, the US needs players who are a bit "edgier"; basically we need a few thugs out there in defense and midfield kind of like Gattuso used to be for Italy back when Italy played soccer.
Touche

Gattuso is one of my favorite players ever. It's been painful to see him not getting much playing time with AC Milan anymore, Rino is badass. I'd LOVE to see him come to MLS, although I think he may go back to the Scottish Premier League if anything (his wife is from Scotland).
One of my favorite soccer ads ever, the Dirty Sanchez boys with Gattuso
[youtube]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rFSrq4q1Hek&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rFSrq4q1Hek&hl=en_US&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/youtube]

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- shel311
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Re: ***Official World Cup Talk Thread***
I think it's illogical to say he made a great play and we'd all do the same and then also say it's cheating.
Re: ***Official World Cup Talk Thread***
shel311 wrote:I think it's illogical to say he made a great play and we'd all do the same and then also say it's cheating.
Of course you would look at it without context.
When he DID it, I thought it was a play done out of pure reaction, not with intent. Thus I felt it was a smart play in regards to ODDS (100% certainty of the goal, vs 80% certainty of the PK goal) and yes, I'd be happy to see it happen for USA or Italy in that situation. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I didn't view it as intentionally cheating.
When he opened his damn mouth and GLOATED about how he made "the best save of the tournament" and essentially said he meant to do it, it shows that he circumvented the rules to gain an advantage, and not just any rule but the most important rule of soccer (you know, the first one you learned as a kid, that you CAN'T USE YOUR HANDS). Then FIFA said "eh, it's ok, you just get the one match ban". You don't get it, Shel--I'm not angry at HIM, I'm angry at FIFA. It's like a parent whose child keys their neighbor's car, and then gives them the same punishment they gave them the week before when the kid took a toy away from their friend.

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- shel311
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Re: ***Official World Cup Talk Thread***
I do get it. I never said you was angry at him, but you said he cheated, and I vehemently disagree with that sentiment.
Like in your analogy with a football player coming from the sideline to tackle a breakaway runner that you said was "perfect", it's just not logical. I think 100% of us in the NDL would like to think we'd all do the same exact thing Suarez did. But on the flip side, probably 100% of us(minus trendon maybe LOL) would say we would NOT come off the sideline to tackle a dude going for a TD. Thus, the analogy is way off, IMO. If it was "'perfect", there wouldn't be such a huge disparity there.
Like in your analogy with a football player coming from the sideline to tackle a breakaway runner that you said was "perfect", it's just not logical. I think 100% of us in the NDL would like to think we'd all do the same exact thing Suarez did. But on the flip side, probably 100% of us(minus trendon maybe LOL) would say we would NOT come off the sideline to tackle a dude going for a TD. Thus, the analogy is way off, IMO. If it was "'perfect", there wouldn't be such a huge disparity there.
Re: ***Official World Cup Talk Thread***
I think that there is a big difference between cleating someone and using your hands to stop a ball. Multiple game suspensions are given when a player intends to injure an opponent. I believe in these cases, FIFA should review the play and issue multiple game bans.
Using your hands to stop a goal is on a different level. He didnt put anyone else at risk by doing so and his actions are not considered "dirty." He was red carded and Ghana was given a penalty kick. He will also have to miss the next game.
I agree that FIFA should be able to review the Red card and keep the option of multiple game suspensions. But I dissagree with you about it being cheating. There are probably 4 to 5 handballs a game with 3 to 4 of them being called. If you and the rest of the media honestly believe that using your hands should result in being kicked out of the WC, then why where you not on here making the same amount of noice when the Brazilian scored that goal after using his hand/arm? Isnt it the same thing? Didnt each action result in the advantage of the penalized team? I just dont think you can have it both ways.
Using your hands to stop a goal is on a different level. He didnt put anyone else at risk by doing so and his actions are not considered "dirty." He was red carded and Ghana was given a penalty kick. He will also have to miss the next game.
I agree that FIFA should be able to review the Red card and keep the option of multiple game suspensions. But I dissagree with you about it being cheating. There are probably 4 to 5 handballs a game with 3 to 4 of them being called. If you and the rest of the media honestly believe that using your hands should result in being kicked out of the WC, then why where you not on here making the same amount of noice when the Brazilian scored that goal after using his hand/arm? Isnt it the same thing? Didnt each action result in the advantage of the penalized team? I just dont think you can have it both ways.
IM: brwnbear26
Re: ***Official World Cup Talk Thread***
brwnbear wrote:I think that there is a big difference between cleating someone and using your hands to stop a ball. Multiple game suspensions are given when a player intends to injure an opponent. I believe in these cases, FIFA should review the play and issue multiple game bans.
Using your hands to stop a goal is on a different level. He didnt put anyone else at risk by doing so and his actions are not considered "dirty." He was red carded and Ghana was given a penalty kick. He will also have to miss the next game.
I agree that FIFA should be able to review the Red card and keep the option of multiple game suspensions. But I dissagree with you about it being cheating. There are probably 4 to 5 handballs a game with 3 to 4 of them being called. If you and the rest of the media honestly believe that using your hands should result in being kicked out of the WC, then why where you not on here making the same amount of noice when the Brazilian scored that goal after using his hand/arm? Isnt it the same thing? Didnt each action result in the advantage of the penalized team? I just dont think you can have it both ways.
Oh, don't even get me started on Fabiano. Now while they would have won that match regardless, that was just an AWFUL display, both by him handling it twice, and then by the ref--who not only missed it, but actually went UP TO HIM, laughing, and asked Fabiano if he did it....Fabiano's reaction alone made me want to slap him.

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Re: ***Official World Cup Talk Thread***
jsence2 wrote:brwnbear wrote:I think that there is a big difference between cleating someone and using your hands to stop a ball. Multiple game suspensions are given when a player intends to injure an opponent. I believe in these cases, FIFA should review the play and issue multiple game bans.
Using your hands to stop a goal is on a different level. He didnt put anyone else at risk by doing so and his actions are not considered "dirty." He was red carded and Ghana was given a penalty kick. He will also have to miss the next game.
I agree that FIFA should be able to review the Red card and keep the option of multiple game suspensions. But I dissagree with you about it being cheating. There are probably 4 to 5 handballs a game with 3 to 4 of them being called. If you and the rest of the media honestly believe that using your hands should result in being kicked out of the WC, then why where you not on here making the same amount of noice when the Brazilian scored that goal after using his hand/arm? Isnt it the same thing? Didnt each action result in the advantage of the penalized team? I just dont think you can have it both ways.
Oh, don't even get me started on Fabiano. Now while they would have won that match regardless, that was just an AWFUL display, both by him handling it twice, and then by the ref--who not only missed it, but actually went UP TO HIM, laughing, and asked Fabiano if he did it....Fabiano's reaction alone made me want to slap him.
You would get your ass kicked
Re: ***Official World Cup Talk Thread***
Easportsbama wrote:jsence2 wrote:brwnbear wrote:I think that there is a big difference between cleating someone and using your hands to stop a ball. Multiple game suspensions are given when a player intends to injure an opponent. I believe in these cases, FIFA should review the play and issue multiple game bans.
Using your hands to stop a goal is on a different level. He didnt put anyone else at risk by doing so and his actions are not considered "dirty." He was red carded and Ghana was given a penalty kick. He will also have to miss the next game.
I agree that FIFA should be able to review the Red card and keep the option of multiple game suspensions. But I dissagree with you about it being cheating. There are probably 4 to 5 handballs a game with 3 to 4 of them being called. If you and the rest of the media honestly believe that using your hands should result in being kicked out of the WC, then why where you not on here making the same amount of noice when the Brazilian scored that goal after using his hand/arm? Isnt it the same thing? Didnt each action result in the advantage of the penalized team? I just dont think you can have it both ways.
Oh, don't even get me started on Fabiano. Now while they would have won that match regardless, that was just an AWFUL display, both by him handling it twice, and then by the ref--who not only missed it, but actually went UP TO HIM, laughing, and asked Fabiano if he did it....Fabiano's reaction alone made me want to slap him.
You would get your ass kicked
....because you know SO much about me, right? I mean, he's a soccer player, so that automatically means he'd win a fight?

Do you think before you post, or do you find that it's just white noise between your ears?

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- shel311
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Re: ***Official World Cup Talk Thread***
Hart4Heisman wrote:call me crazy, but i think an elite athlete would beat the shit out of some random schmuck any day of the week.
who are we kidding here?
Well, he's 5'11 and weights 171 pounds.
And another, Messi is like 5'6 and weighs 147 pounds. He is without question an elite athlete. You think he can beat up every random NDLer?
Not to mention, there soccer players.

Re: ***Official World Cup Talk Thread***
shel311 wrote:Hart4Heisman wrote:call me crazy, but i think an elite athlete would beat the shit out of some random schmuck any day of the week.
who are we kidding here?
Well, he's 5'11 and weights 171 pounds.
And another, Messi is like 5'6 and weighs 147 pounds. He is without question an elite athlete. You think he can beat up every random NDLer?
Not to mention, there soccer players.
My point exactly, Shel.
We're not talking about Gattuso or Schweinsteiger here--we're talking a guy who looks like he could be broken in half if something hit him. Not to mention Joe Cole could probably kick his ass....and Joe Cole knows what it's like to have his ass kicked

Also, being an "elite athlete" only means you are fit. Doesn't mean you know how to fight.

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Re: ***Official World Cup Talk Thread***
fighting's a lot about anger and using it to ignore getting hit and smacking someone else.
There's plenty of big dudes that can't fight and plenty of small ones that can so I'd say other than length/reach i'm not sure it's a huge part of it
There's plenty of big dudes that can't fight and plenty of small ones that can so I'd say other than length/reach i'm not sure it's a huge part of it

Re: ***Official World Cup Talk Thread***
Easportsbama wrote:jsence2 wrote:brwnbear wrote:I think that there is a big difference between cleating someone and using your hands to stop a ball. Multiple game suspensions are given when a player intends to injure an opponent. I believe in these cases, FIFA should review the play and issue multiple game bans.
Using your hands to stop a goal is on a different level. He didnt put anyone else at risk by doing so and his actions are not considered "dirty." He was red carded and Ghana was given a penalty kick. He will also have to miss the next game.
I agree that FIFA should be able to review the Red card and keep the option of multiple game suspensions. But I dissagree with you about it being cheating. There are probably 4 to 5 handballs a game with 3 to 4 of them being called. If you and the rest of the media honestly believe that using your hands should result in being kicked out of the WC, then why where you not on here making the same amount of noice when the Brazilian scored that goal after using his hand/arm? Isnt it the same thing? Didnt each action result in the advantage of the penalized team? I just dont think you can have it both ways.
Oh, don't even get me started on Fabiano. Now while they would have won that match regardless, that was just an AWFUL display, both by him handling it twice, and then by the ref--who not only missed it, but actually went UP TO HIM, laughing, and asked Fabiano if he did it....Fabiano's reaction alone made me want to slap him.
You need to get your ass kicked
Fixed
Re: ***Official World Cup Talk Thread***
Easportsbama wrote:Easportsbama wrote:jsence2 wrote:brwnbear wrote:I think that there is a big difference between cleating someone and using your hands to stop a ball. Multiple game suspensions are given when a player intends to injure an opponent. I believe in these cases, FIFA should review the play and issue multiple game bans.
Using your hands to stop a goal is on a different level. He didnt put anyone else at risk by doing so and his actions are not considered "dirty." He was red carded and Ghana was given a penalty kick. He will also have to miss the next game.
I agree that FIFA should be able to review the Red card and keep the option of multiple game suspensions. But I dissagree with you about it being cheating. There are probably 4 to 5 handballs a game with 3 to 4 of them being called. If you and the rest of the media honestly believe that using your hands should result in being kicked out of the WC, then why where you not on here making the same amount of noice when the Brazilian scored that goal after using his hand/arm? Isnt it the same thing? Didnt each action result in the advantage of the penalized team? I just dont think you can have it both ways.
Oh, don't even get me started on Fabiano. Now while they would have won that match regardless, that was just an AWFUL display, both by him handling it twice, and then by the ref--who not only missed it, but actually went UP TO HIM, laughing, and asked Fabiano if he did it....Fabiano's reaction alone made me want to slap him.
You need to get your ass kicked
Fixed
I know you have a hard-on for me, but seriously, aren't the "hit-and-run" trolling posts getting old?

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Re: ***Official World Cup Talk Thread***
basing a hefty sum of money on the way someone's acts on an internet message board seems pretty risky

- shel311
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Re: ***Official World Cup Talk Thread***
Hart4Heisman wrote:it means he has more strength than you do, lets be serious here man, talk all the shit you want im still not buying it.
they may not know how to fight, but how do i know you know how to fight?
i'd put a hefty sum of money on this guy beating you up.
This argument is ridiculous, but I love ridiculous arguments, LOL.
Do you know how big Jsence is? I have no f'ing clue. He could be 150 or he could be 250.
Hell, have you seen guys like Packsy and JeffDaddy? Those dudes are monsters! Are you saying some little dudes that weigh a buck-fifty soaken wet, you'd throw hefty sums of money on those little dudes to beat up those guys?
Come on now.
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Re: ***Official World Cup Talk Thread***
What the fuck ever. If that bitch ever slapped me I'd beat the shit outta Natalie Gulbis.Hart4Heisman wrote: regular people are insane if they think they can beat up a pro athlete, im sorry, its just not happening, these guys could be curlers and 95% of people here would still get their ass beat.
