Politics and stuff

[DRiccio21]

nothing in life is free.

just a few basic examples, we don't send weapons to Ukraine to be nice, thats not 'free', kids in school don't get 'free lunch', nobody is getting student loan relief for 'free', you didn't get covid checks for 'free'. the gov't creates social programs they feel benefit the greater good of our society (giving them the benefit of the doubt on their intent) and the burden of that is felt in our countries balance sheet.

it isn't a republican or democrat thing. they both spend out of the ass, just on different stuff.

unfortunately because gov't programs have no competition or free market the programs are generally very ineffective and inefficient and a lot of the money ends up slipping into the hands of political favors/donors/etc (again this is true of both parties, not just democrats who typically get the bad rep about this stuff). these programs are mainly paid for with tax dollars. a side effect of more spending is more printing of money, more printing of money creates inflation... hence where we are today with the recent excessive money printing. when the tables turn and things run dry and we can't pay for these programs with our current revenue streams (outside of just printing money) one option is to raise taxes to create more revenues to pay down the debt. that's why you hear people say the middle class is bailing out people's debt because ultimately its their taxes that will be impacted to offset the debt. people will tell you that's bs and they'll raise taxes on the rich, that's nonsense. i can speak from experience knowing and working with multiple billionaires, they aren't in the business of just giving their money away. if they did get taxed more, they find different places to live (hence the huge exodus out of NYC and California to Texas and Florida) or they create tax haven type businesses or they simply raise the prices on whatever they sell to put the burden onto the consumer. the middleclass is always the person getting fucked. you make enough to be able to afford but not enough to have any power.

fiscally conservative people, generally, believe that money is best left to the private sector to solve problems or in our own pockets to make our own decisions on how it should be spent. more liberal people believe gov't should make more decisions and politicians will properly distribute the money to help those in need and if you leave it to the private sector it just makes the rich billionaires even more rich.

the truth is people are suffering and in pain and need help. the truth is also that politicians (most, not all) are greedy, self serving and inefficient. and giving them the absolute most benefit of the doubt, just are ignorant and don't understand finances. we need social assistance in certain areas, we also need less waste and corruption. how we get there is your decision to make with your vote.

the gov't runs a balance sheet. they decide how much debt we want to take on and how much we can afford. anytime you hear something is free you can make the decision for yourself what the best way to fund that project or if its truly necessary or what the main objective of that program is (to really help or to win votes... hint, regardless of the side its never to be kind)... but no matter what, its never 'free'.

[GeorgesGoons]

Well said Dave

[GeorgesGoons]

So nobody is "paying" for it, we are all going to pay for it in higher costs to live. Social Media can go fuck itself. I remember playing lemmings back in the day. Can we make a lemmings social media to throw all the morons off the edge?

And can we turn our Ed system into one of some get educated and the others go to trades like other countries? I see it everyday of my life in education where we have to force feed kids that will end up driving a truck, workig on cars or building their own business that need an education like George needs his nails done. ALL don't need to be educated and the ones that want to be can!

University costs are ridiculous!

I knew college wasn't for me even with a high school 3.5+ GPA. I knew I couldn't handle sitting in an office, it would be suicide for me.

Now when you say force feed the kids, do you mean force feed them into thinking they need college? Or just a general education? If it's a general education then so be it, that's the profession....I just wish more parents were involved with their kids to help relieve the stress off of educators. My sister in law is a teacher and she tells me all the time that it's not just the education system that is broke but the lack of involvement from parents of these kids. Bama says all the time how hard it is to expell a kid where he teaches, actions should have consequences but unfortunately they don't in some school districts.

I'm assuming all high school kids have the ability to take college courses in HS, right? If these kids aren't motivated enough in HS I wonder why their parents think they will flip the switch 3 months after graduating while taking on enormous amounts of debt.too bad there isn't an easy answer here, except we need to get the cost of an education to a manageable level. And we should get rid of a lot of majors that mean absolutely dog shit to the world, or keep them but they can't be rolled into educational loans

[nick]

None of this matters with climate change ruining the world as we speak and it only getting worse. Ya'll are worrying about the wrong change.

[ReignOnU]

This is what you get when you tell 2 generations of kids that they have to go to college to be successful, don't give them guidance on the usefulness of their career choices and then pass out student loans like they are Halloween candy, while basically letting the candy manufacturers charge whatever they want.

[ReignOnU]

Ohio Democratic Senate nominee Tim Ryan

Here's a Dem that sees some of the bigger picture... though his idea is just to add more breaks for more things, which certainly isn't optimal.

[jsence2]

Tuition at UK is 3-4x more now than it was when I went 20 years ago. Meanwhile, the average wage in the state of Kentucky has gone up about 40%. THAT is the real problem.

The cost of getting this magical education that is going to increase how much money you can make after college has gone up exponentially, but so has the cost of living. Rent in the city of Louisville has doubled over the past decade. Salaries have not. So paying back these student loans is extremely difficult, and isn't nearly as easy as it was for the generation before mine when they had more income vs loan debt.

People say "well don't take out a loan you can't afford to pay back". To that, I'd say 1) that's the whole point of having to pay for an education to get a "better job", and 2) it's the only loan where you borrow money and get nothing tangible in return. Take out a mortgage? Get a house that has value. Take out a car loan? Get a car that has value. Hell, take out a payday loan? Get cash. Student loan is money for something you "might" get in four years (or two). But God forbid something happen where you can't finish your degree, like a major injury or a death in the family that forces you to return home, etc.

Student loan debt is often taken out more often by those who need the loans to get out of poorer households, families, etc. Those who have family members that can pay for their schooling aren't "needing" the loans, their parents are simply doing it to stretch out the payments. Or they write a check. Therefore, those students immediately have a leg up--they can take jobs and internships that others can't afford to take because they must make enough to survive and cover loan payments. They're able to save up for a home sooner, which creates generational wealth, etc. It all builds into the cycle upon itself.

As for whether it's "fair" or not...

I don't own a home. Many of my friends do. Some of them have gotten grants, tax breaks, rebates, etc from the government. I've paid for those. I haven't once told a friend it wasn't fair they got that assistance, I'm happy for them that they've got a home.

I don't own a bank. Many banks got bailed out in the late 2000s which kept my friends' mortgages afloat, kept money in their bank accounts, etc. It also kept these banks in business. None of that benefitted me aside from not destroying the economy.

I don't use food stamps, I don't need public housing assistance, etc--but others do, including people I know. I don't tell them they should get a second or third job, I pray that they are able to provide for their kids and know they work hard to survive.

We all use things that the government pays for that others don't, and we all pay for things that others use and need and we don't. That's how taxes work. That's what government does. To be mad about people getting a $10,000 forgiveness (which is just that--forgiveness; we aren't getting cash) baffles me. Congratulations to those whose parents paid their loans; they got a huge leg up on the rest of us. Congratulations to those who suffered and grinded to pay off their loans; you're in a better place than most. But why would you want others to have to suffer and struggle like that? I know that struggle, I'm still living it. $10k will only knock about 20% off my loans.

Earlier this year, I had every bit of the $30k I owed Sallie Mae wiped away because they got sued and had to erase debt for shady shit they did...and I broke down in tears for two hours because of the relief off my shoulders. I know this news did that for other people. Why would you be so mad about that, versus being mad about the fact that our government spends trillions of our tax dollars on inflated military spending?

Sorry for the long comment but this is something I'm passionate about. Why wish suffering and struggle on someone else because you went through it? That's the equivalent of older slaves getting freed after the Civil War, and being upset that the younger slaves didn't have to endure what they did. There's a lot to be upset about in this world; someone else getting help shouldn't be one of them.

[jsence2]

This is what you get when you tell 2 generations of kids that they have to go to college to be successful, don't give them guidance on the usefulness of their career choices and then pass out student loans like they are Halloween candy, while basically letting the candy manufacturers charge whatever they want.

And then ending regulations on those companies, and THEN letting one of the people who makes money off those companies run the Department of Education for four years, as she stripped away numerous protections.

The biggest part of this bill isn't even the 10k; it's the capping of payments at 5% interest, with the remaining unpaid interest for that month being forgiven so it doesn't increase the amount owed. Sallie Mae wanted $1k per month from me when I graduated. No help, no assistance, because they weren't required to. No income-based repayment. Just "forebearance"--which came back to bite them in the ass because my loans all got waived due to them never offering me (and others) said programs. Capping monthly payments at 5% vs 10% will be a life saver for many people.

[ReignOnU]

We can run out all of the levels that made money off of the financial ignorance of people. But I tend to look at it in a much simpler view... the student loan program is garbage and universities gouging people for the cost of an education is absurd.

As with anything that the government puts their hands on, they are going to screw it up and a company is going to find a way to exploit it to the max. Make the universities handle the backing the loans and essentially guaranteeing the quality of their education and we'll see how fast they dump the bullshit degrees, increase their admissions standards and drop their tuition costs... assuming they don't get canceled in the process. I think the saddest part is that the universities will walk out of this completely unharmed.

Of course I don't have sympathy for someone that took out $100k for an art history degree, but at least I can chalk that up to them being young and ignorant, with likely having had their parents and/or public school fail them by not teaching them basic finance, while filling their head full of bullshit about how important that degree would be in their life. Universities have known damn well what they were doing when they were raising tuition.

[ReignOnU]

...and just as a side note... get ready to have the same kind of conversation in a few years when discussing health care. Government got their hands all on it and costs have shot up, with no ceiling in sight. Take a look around your local areas and see the nice new facilities, etc.

Want to make that more ironic... go look at the names on some of those medical facilities... here's a hint: The Ohio State Wexner Medical Center is going to be a nearly $2B facility built by 2026.

[jsence2]

We can run out all of the levels that made money off of the financial ignorance of people. But I tend to look at it in a much simpler view... the student loan program is garbage and universities gouging people for the cost of an education is absurd.

As with anything that the government puts their hands on, they are going to screw it up and a company is going to find a way to exploit it to the max. Make the universities handle the backing the loans and essentially guaranteeing the quality of their education and we'll see how fast they dump the bullshit degrees, increase their admissions standards and drop their tuition costs... assuming they don't get canceled in the process. I think the saddest part is that the universities will walk out of this completely unharmed.

Of course I don't have sympathy for someone that took out $100k for an art history degree, but at least I can chalk that up to them being young and ignorant, with likely having had their parents and/or public school fail them by not teaching them basic finance, while filling their head full of bullshit about how important that degree would be in their life. Universities have known damn well what they were doing when they were raising tuition.

Not gonna lie, I'm so tired of hearing the "art history degree" stuff. How many people do you actually know that have majored in something frivolous like that? How many people do you seriously think are taking out loans for dumb degrees?

The majority of people with student loan debt and jobs that aren't paying enough to pay them back are actually business majors. Teachers often don't make enough, and they're required in many states to have degrees; in fact, Kentucky (until the teacher shortages) required a Masters within five years of being certified. And then didn't pay them enough, AND tried to take away their pension.

Social workers, nurses, jobs that require education and don't pay shit...combined with skyrocketing tuition costs and predatory loans...THAT is why we have a student debt crisis. Not because 500,000 people took out $100k each to get a degree in art history.

I do agree with you that universities are to blame--but they're just part of the problem. Sallie Mae/Navient/whatever Devos' company is called now is the biggest problem. Predatory loans, horrible interest rates, and in bed with for-profit schools that charge absurd tuition and then push students towards the private loans when they're eligible for federal ones. A lot of people aren't able to handle the absurd payments for the private loans, and then it snowballs into having issues keeping up with the federal loans. The entire system is in need of stronger regulation, starting with that trash company.

Btw, you blame government for the reason the costs have shot up...ask nations like Sweden, Norway, Iceland, etc how they're doing with running schooling and managing university education costs as they blow past us in numerous industries, education levels, etc. It's not "government", it's the fact that we're spending more than half our annual budget to fund the industrial war machine.

[GeorgesGoons]

Not gonna lie, I'm so tired of hearing the "art history degree" stuff. How many people do you actually know that have majored in something frivolous like that? How many people do you seriously think are taking out loans for dumb degrees?

It's not just "art history degree" it's garbage degrees that mean jack shit to 99.9% of adult jobs.

The majority of people with student loan debt and jobs that aren't paying enough to pay them back are actually business majors. Teachers often don't make enough, and they're required in many states to have degrees; in fact, Kentucky (until the teacher shortages) required a Masters within five years of being certified. And then didn't pay them enough, AND tried to take away their pension.

Teachers should have their loans forgiven after teaching for 5 years at a public school. I've said this for a long time. Same goes with any other public service job. But we should also expect certain standards from these teachers if their loans are forgiven.

Social workers, nurses, jobs that require education and don't pay shit...combined with skyrocketing tuition costs and predatory loans...THAT is why we have a student debt crisis. Not because 500,000 people took out $100k each to get a degree in art history

Another example of a worthless "degree. Nurses shouldn't need a degree. A trade school of sorts would be perfectly fine for them. They don't need to take 3 English classes and college algebra to know how to take care of a patient.

Btw, you blame government for the reason the costs have shot up...ask nations like Sweden, Norway, Iceland, etc how they're doing with running schooling and managing university education costs as they blow past us in numerous industries, education levels, etc. It's not "government", it's the fact that we're spending more than half our annual budget to fund the industrial war machine.

you start of with being tired of hearing about the "art history major" and then throw this crap out. You have 3 counties with the population density of New York, and NYC has 2 million people less than Sweden and have more people than the other two combined. Sweden has an average of 32.3% tax rate and if they make over a certain amount they add another 20% state tax to it. Norway is 22% and Iceland is 31% (and if they make 84k a year it's 41.25%). The US tax payer rarely pays anywhere close to these rates due to loopholes in our tax system...another conversation to be had on that.

[ReignOnU]

George hit most of the obvious stuff, but I'll be pretty straight forward about how I'm approaching this in my own life... I work in finance, my wife is a social worker. I've been very clear with her that I'm steering our children into STEM and that I won't be paying for a liberal arts degree. If our children earn their way in and choose that path, so be it. But if they are using the money that I have set aside for them, it will be for a science degree and likely in a STEM field.

As for the frequency of seeing useless degrees, yes, it's painfully obvious in our area and the success of the individuals that choose to follow a STEM based path is miles ahead of others.

I'll also agree with George in that I'd be 100% on board for full student loan forgiveness for a teacher that completes X years at a public school. (not sure what I'd set X as, but 5 that George mentioned seems reasonable at first thought)

As for being a nurse, if you do it right and follow through with it, you'll be set. My BIL and SIL are both nurses. BIL works for CareFlight and SIL just started a private business after 10+ years at Miami Valley. They could stop right now, retire comfortably in their lake house, put their twins through college and travel liberally. It's the nurses that don't push through that end up bouncing back and forth between Hospice, bedside agencies, or working with my wife (they hire them due to the crossover analysis).

Finally, a degree like my wife has... there's no reason it should exist. I'm telling you this and she'd tell you this. Someone would be batshit crazy to pay $80K+ for it. It should work more like a trade school licensure.

I live in what I'd refer to as a fairly diverse "15 min" area. There is a huge variance in the people I cross paths with each week. But there's a lot of consistency to the fact that those with STEM based degrees are doing great, those with trade backgrounds and a hustle mentality are doing ok to outstanding, those with reasonably useful degrees are getting by and those with a music/art degree are desperately struggling to make ends meet. I'm realistic, maybe they truly love what they do in being a music teacher, etc., but it's apparent that the path is a lot rougher than other ways.

[jsence2]

Not gonna break up like you did, George, that's too much work lol. I'm lazy. (but looked nice)

1) get rid of tax loopholes. Period. Tax loopholes have done nothing but destroy this economy. There's a reason Reaganomics coincides with the shift from a strong working class, to the massive wealth gap we have today. "Trickle down economics" is nothing more than the rich corporations pissing on our heads and telling us it's rain.

2) Nursing degrees should require some math and English--a nurse's notes are vital for record keeping and diagnosing, and math is pretty damn important. I don't know many nurses taking English Lit, though.

3) Ok, look at bigger populations. Countries like Germany, France, etc. It's amazing what these nations can do when they don't spend half their tax revenues on the industrial war machine. Stop paying for bases in other nations, defend OURS at home, and stop the unnecessary spending. We have crumbling infrastructure that needs repairs and badly (Jackson, MS has had a boil water advisory in schools and homes for four weeks now, it would cost over 200m to fix their water treatment plant. We're the richest nation in the world, this shouldn't happen!). We need better energy sources. We need a lot of things that could easily be paid for without raising another cent in tax revenue--simply by investing it where it should be going, and not lining the pockets of the CEOs at Boeing, Lockheed Martin, politicians paid by the weapon companies, etc.

4) We DO need more science majors, but we live in a country where a majority of the population shits on science they don't like or don't believe in. Scientist tells them something they believe in? Great. They don't? Then they're stupid or being political, or something else. Why would people want to go into that field when they're just going to be attacked and disbelieved? That's why a lot of our better scientists go overseas. The "brain drain" is real.

5) Mike, to your point....degrees should have different costs. That's a whole other discussion. A degree in one topic should NOT cost the same as a degree in another, because of what the payback is. A degree is needed to become an expert in most of these fields, whether you feel the degree is needed or not. I don't want someone being the curator of a museum of art who doesn't have a degree in art. Plain and simple. There IS a need for that degree. But it shouldn't cost nearly what an actuarial degree does, a field that (once you pass the exams post-school) averages about $125k per year, and requires much harder education, testing, etc. For fields like social work, teaching, etc, those degrees should be enticing to get because of the lower cost. Make it more affordable for people who want to teach to get that degree, vs waiving their loans. Educate them, make it enticing for better candidates to go into those fields, then they can afford to live on the salary they get and can improve the level of education provided. But that would require a lack of greed, and we all know what drives these decisions.

At the end of the day, I think we all want the same thing: for education to be affordable, for our kids/friends/family to have the ability to go into a field they enjoy and not have to struggle. How we get there differs, but until the greedy and the corrupt get their hands out of these pies (the same with pretty much everything in this country) not a damn thing will get fixed or changed. Those in power will do whatever it takes to stay in power, and that requires keeping us all divided and fighting and distracted while they do what they want, and if anybody calls them on it they just feed their base to blame the other side for making shit up or "what about" ism. It's honestly depressing and I don't see how it ever gets better, but...such is life.

[jsence2]

Btw, one other thing about Europe and the tax rate:

If paying close to 50% taxes meant we had free healthcare (and more importantly, never going into debt from medical bills), clean water, a strong electrical grid, better education, better infrastructure, etc...I'd happily foot the bill. The medical costs alone would recoup the money for many people in the long run; imagine paying $300 for a pregnancy versus the thousands (or tens of thousands if something goes wrong) that parents pay here.

When you subtract your insurance costs, co-pays, medication payments, etc from your take-home, you're getting close to 50% anyways.

[GeorgesGoons]

Btw, one other thing about Europe and the tax rate:


When you subtract your insurance costs, co-pays, medication payments, etc from your take-home, you're getting close to 50% anyways.

If you chose the wrong profession then that would be true My yearly cost for medical insurance is lower than most peoples bi-weekly or monthly payment for medical insurance. but it comes (came) at a price.

To get a degree you still need to take english courses. You don't need to know how to write a paper to be a nurse. It should be more of a vocational type school that focuses on their job rather than 2 extra years of prerequisite classes.

As far as the tax loopholes. Has nothing to do with Reganomics. It has to deal with legislators passing laws to allow people to get away with paying less taxes (both sides of the aisle). I would love for a 10% flat rate (or whatever rate that makes sense, just threw out a number) and then added sales taxes. That means the rich will not be able to get away with tax loopholes and the poor/middle class pays their fair share as well. If you don't want to pay extra taxes then save, save, save and only buy the necessities. I'm not for social medicine, i for one lived it for 21 years in the Army. You don't have a say who your doctor is, they change all the time and you get substandard care.

[shel311]

Actual on the record comment from the White House, paraphrased,

""If you are not with the majority line of thinking, you are extreme"


No big deal...

[nick]

TIL actual =/= paraphrased

[shel311]

If someone on the Right said the above, nick who isn't even American would be having a meltdown.

But it came from the Left so nick who isn't even American agrees with it.

[GeorgesGoons]

President Biden's speech the other night did nothing that he said the speech would be, unifying. Hard to unify people when you call out all the MAGA Republicans as extremist, that's over 70M people who voted for Trump. They are trying to walk it back yesterday with just saying it's the rioters from Jan 6th or the 2 guys from Michigan that wanted to kidnap the governor. Those are not what MAGA repulicans represent. I think this may have easily created a few Republican adds for this midterm